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Quandary : Do I or don't I drop the shop in it?
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I would recommend that you speak to the store at least once again, Steph, it's only fair for them to get their house in order - if they want to - and initially try and speak to the duty manager over the phone and if you can make sure that they will pay for your journey - but you may still have to pay. Having spoken to the manager and having listed all your concerns to him if he takes it seriously, go and see him, problem sorted.
If you still have concerns after calling the mgr, that is the time to call Camelot - just for information and clarification, not to make allegations just yet ( if they probe and want more information by all means give them what they want ) - with these clarifications you should be better informed as to how you should deal with the mgr / store. If you find yourself dealing with a junior mgr politely ask for a senior manager if you prefer that ( Oi! Numbnuts! I want the organ grinder, not his monkey! " may be tempting - but it buggers up your credibility
).
Basically be polite,yet firm, give them a chance to sort it themselves, follow your instinct - if they treat you like a dippy tart they won't sort it, go straight to Camelot, if there's a problem Camelot will thank you, if there isn't a problem, its better safe than sorry.
Finally as to the opinion / allegation of tampering - you made NO allegation, you only stated your opinion as you saw it ( so don't get windy if words like slander, libel or court action get bandied around; slander is the devil itself to prove, 'cos it is only verbal and if you affirm it was an only opinion end of story; libel must be written down and passed around in such a manner as to damage the reputation of the company and what you typed looks like "opinion" ergo end of story.
I know this is a bit rambling, but if you speak to the most senior mgr you can collar and sort it with him first, that would be fine. If you are not sure get advice from Camelot ( they may even look into it themselves anyway ) then see the mgr in person at a pre-arranged time. If it gets sorted great, if he is obstructive tryto get his superior's contact details, and contact the area mgr at the same time you contact Camelot with your complaint - and let them sort it out. Remember if they try to scare you off ( unlikely, but... ) theyre only full of piss and wind.
I hope this helps you - any probs I'll stay on till 2:30 at least if you want to send a pm otherwise - send one later and I'll pick it up Friday / Saturday
If you still have concerns after calling the mgr, that is the time to call Camelot - just for information and clarification, not to make allegations just yet ( if they probe and want more information by all means give them what they want ) - with these clarifications you should be better informed as to how you should deal with the mgr / store. If you find yourself dealing with a junior mgr politely ask for a senior manager if you prefer that ( Oi! Numbnuts! I want the organ grinder, not his monkey! " may be tempting - but it buggers up your credibility
).Basically be polite,yet firm, give them a chance to sort it themselves, follow your instinct - if they treat you like a dippy tart they won't sort it, go straight to Camelot, if there's a problem Camelot will thank you, if there isn't a problem, its better safe than sorry.
Finally as to the opinion / allegation of tampering - you made NO allegation, you only stated your opinion as you saw it ( so don't get windy if words like slander, libel or court action get bandied around; slander is the devil itself to prove, 'cos it is only verbal and if you affirm it was an only opinion end of story; libel must be written down and passed around in such a manner as to damage the reputation of the company and what you typed looks like "opinion" ergo end of story.
I know this is a bit rambling, but if you speak to the most senior mgr you can collar and sort it with him first, that would be fine. If you are not sure get advice from Camelot ( they may even look into it themselves anyway ) then see the mgr in person at a pre-arranged time. If it gets sorted great, if he is obstructive tryto get his superior's contact details, and contact the area mgr at the same time you contact Camelot with your complaint - and let them sort it out. Remember if they try to scare you off ( unlikely, but... ) theyre only full of piss and wind.
I hope this helps you - any probs I'll stay on till 2:30 at least if you want to send a pm otherwise - send one later and I'll pick it up Friday / Saturday
If it's just a little shop, I'd be tempted to think they were selling dodgy scratchcards. Our local shops sell fags and booze that you just know have come off the back of a lorry.
i might be very wrong here, but if it's a big supermarket then it seems to me unlikely that they would be selling dodgy stuff deliberately. However, if they are, then people should know about it.
I go with whoever said to give em a chance to sort it, but also stand your ground if you feel strongly enough about it. Don't be bullied into submission.
One more thing - do NOT let those scratchcards out of your sight! That's your evidence!
i might be very wrong here, but if it's a big supermarket then it seems to me unlikely that they would be selling dodgy stuff deliberately. However, if they are, then people should know about it.
I go with whoever said to give em a chance to sort it, but also stand your ground if you feel strongly enough about it. Don't be bullied into submission.
One more thing - do NOT let those scratchcards out of your sight! That's your evidence!
Sexlightened
What you say may have a certain degree of validity but it overlooks the individuals they employ, who are not necessarily all entirely honest themselves.
Quote by Marya
If it's just a little shop, I'd be tempted to think they were selling dodgy scratchcards. Our local shops sell fags and booze that you just know have come off the back of a lorry.
i might be very wrong here, but if it's a big supermarket then it seems to me unlikely that they would be selling dodgy stuff deliberately. However, if they are, then people should know about it.
I go with whoever said to give em a chance to sort it, but also stand your ground if you feel strongly enough about it. Don't be bullied into submission.
One more thing - do NOT let those scratchcards out of your sight! That's your evidence!
Sexlightened
Given that you original ticket was swopped by the cashier, it seems odd that the manager then asks you to retract your reasonable assessment of the situation. Is he already aware of a problem or just trying to protect the good name of the store. Your answer to your quandry perhaps lies there....if you feel he's part of the problem then it looks like you need to tell Camelot. If however he's just trying to fob you off, go higher up and see how they handle it. The fact is the ticket had been tampered with, thats not in dispute, logically it can only have been a memeber of staff.
Mod
Your action should be determined by what you hope to get out of this. 2 dodgy cards from the same shop is more than coincidence, but even if it is, let Camelot deal with it. You might be talking about a couple of quid, they might be talking about thousands. Like most cases like this, the small parts of the jigsaw come together to make the bigger picture, but if you only have one piece of it, you cannot see the final picture. Camelot can put those pieces together very easily. If it was a one-off (ok, two-off!) it is unlikely that Camelot will remove their licence. If this is the last part of a jigsaw with many large winners from this store, then you have helped uncover a major fraud. But you'll never know by dealing directly with the shop - talk to Camelot.
Mal
Mal
I've just recently been on a training course with camelot (long story). This situation was brought up several times. There are several scams perpetrated by unscrupopulous shops on scratch cards. Report them to camelot immedeatly as this wont be an isolated incident it's just that you caught them out. It is not possible to make a mistake with the system that is in place, they are definatly pulling a scam. There is no benefit of the doubt here.
Having a bit of experience of National Lottery things, all scratchcards have to be activated using the lottery terminal prior to sale to enable winning tickets to be recognised by the system when presented. Camelot already know which are the winners at the production stage.
The cards come in sealed plastic wrappers, Camelot knows exactly who is selling which scratchards, how many they have in stock and how many winners are due from their sale. Sometimes the rub-off panels on the back of the cards can be damaged in transit or during unpacking. It is possible that the new batch weren't activated prior to being issued due to poor procedures at the store or untrained staff not knowing what they were doing.
HOWEVER, I find it strange that so many mistakes were made in such a short space of time and personally I would raise my concerns to Camelot. If there is negligence, fraudulent activity or just plain bad procedures being used by the store they will get their arses kicked by Camelot who are really touchy about this kind of thing.
Let 'em have it I say!
The cards come in sealed plastic wrappers, Camelot knows exactly who is selling which scratchards, how many they have in stock and how many winners are due from their sale. Sometimes the rub-off panels on the back of the cards can be damaged in transit or during unpacking. It is possible that the new batch weren't activated prior to being issued due to poor procedures at the store or untrained staff not knowing what they were doing.
HOWEVER, I find it strange that so many mistakes were made in such a short space of time and personally I would raise my concerns to Camelot. If there is negligence, fraudulent activity or just plain bad procedures being used by the store they will get their arses kicked by Camelot who are really touchy about this kind of thing.
Let 'em have it I say!
I would go stratight to Camelot. Had they have genuinely wanted to sort this matter out they would have offered you far more than the groceries and certainly wouldnt have been so defensive!!
The store had their chance and blew it. I would definately photocopy the tickets, just in case and when i contacted Camelot I would just state the facts they should be quiet capable of seeing the implications themselves.
The store had their chance and blew it. I would definately photocopy the tickets, just in case and when i contacted Camelot I would just state the facts they should be quiet capable of seeing the implications themselves.
Sex God
Steph, I work part time in a newsagent and tampering with scratch cards in this fashion is a well known scam amongst lottery agents.
By scratching off the four digit code, they then scan the card, tap in the code and then the machine willl show if the card is a winner or not.
If not, they simply sell it on to the customer. If a winner of course, then someone behind the counter is pocketing the winnings. It is theft, pure and simple
There is a trade newsletter supplied by Camelot which our store and almost certainly every other lottery outlet receives each month, in which stores are asked to be vigilant against this type of thing.
Don't bother with the shop directly. You may get a few more free scratchcards or whatever in compensations, but you this won't put an end to the shop itself carrying on with their little scams.
People liike this deserve to lose their lottery terminal, as that is what will happen when Camelot find out. They are commiting insider trading and Camelot will deal far better with it than you could.
Tracy-Jayne
By scratching off the four digit code, they then scan the card, tap in the code and then the machine willl show if the card is a winner or not.
If not, they simply sell it on to the customer. If a winner of course, then someone behind the counter is pocketing the winnings. It is theft, pure and simple
There is a trade newsletter supplied by Camelot which our store and almost certainly every other lottery outlet receives each month, in which stores are asked to be vigilant against this type of thing.
Don't bother with the shop directly. You may get a few more free scratchcards or whatever in compensations, but you this won't put an end to the shop itself carrying on with their little scams.
People liike this deserve to lose their lottery terminal, as that is what will happen when Camelot find out. They are commiting insider trading and Camelot will deal far better with it than you could.
Tracy-Jayne
Mod
Quote by kazswallows
Shop them but first go to see the manager and find out their explanation. Camolots will probably ask you what was said.
kaz
nope - go straight to Camelot, as Tracey has already said. This is their game and they know exactly how to handle it. You don't need to get in any further with the shop at all.
Mal
All of what has been said above is very valid.
It is my opinion that if you return to the store, they will try and win you over with baubles bangles and shiny things.
If you get taken in by all of that, the store will carry on with thier dodgy dealings.
No doubt there are quite a few scams going on that Camelot are aware of.
They have the expirence to deal far better with stores that are scamming.
I would report them, because they are depriving people like yourself from winning.
A
It is my opinion that if you return to the store, they will try and win you over with baubles bangles and shiny things.
If you get taken in by all of that, the store will carry on with thier dodgy dealings.
No doubt there are quite a few scams going on that Camelot are aware of.
They have the expirence to deal far better with stores that are scamming.
I would report them, because they are depriving people like yourself from winning.
A
Sex God
Quote by RedHot
Steph, I work part time in a newsagent and tampering with scratch cards in this fashion is a well known scam amongst lottery agents.
By scratching off the four digit code, they then scan the card, tap in the code and then the machine willl show if the card is a winner or not.
If not, they simply sell it on to the customer. If a winner of course, then someone behind the counter is pocketing the winnings. It is theft, pure and simple
There is a trade newsletter supplied by Camelot which our store and almost certainly every other lottery outlet receives each month, in which stores are asked to be vigilant against this type of thing.
Don't bother with the shop directly. You may get a few more free scratchcards or whatever in compensations, but you this won't put an end to the shop itself carrying on with their little scams.
People liike this deserve to lose their lottery terminal, as that is what will happen when Camelot find out. They are commiting insider trading and Camelot will deal far better with it than you could.
Tracy-Jayne
I agree with the above. It sounds like a member of staff is removing the validation panels and looking for winners.
It also makes me suspicious as to why the dep. manager wants to keep it quiet, to the point of almost threatening a customer.
Sounds like he's involved or he's covering for someone.
My advice, if you do decide to go and see the manager take a friend with you for moral support and as a witness.
If it was me I'd write to the head office of the supermarket and possibly contact Camalot as well.
Too right, sounds decidedly dodgy, especially with the odds on actually winning, so if they are fiddeling the books so to speak, there is even less chance of winning. this gets really bad when one of the older people in our society go in, as they are not as sharp as some of use, and invetibaly they loose out.. nail the buggers
Orgasminator
Quote by Sexysteph
Do I make a formal allegation to Camelot that the original card was tampered with in my opinion and that they have sold god knows how many unactivated cards to unsuspecting members of the public. This could have serious reprecussions for the store and could lead to the removal of their lottery terminal if they are determined to be negligent?
No question. Gras them up. Just think of the times when people don't report things, nothing gets done untill you apply some heat on their dishonest asses.
Orgasminator
just a thought...if they hadn't activated the tickets then they wouldn't have been able to check if they were winners so it probably wasn't a scam, unless the replacement cards came from a different pack of course. you may well have handed back a winner!
Quote by JudyTV
If you do go and see the manager of the shop then take one of those little tape machines that are voice activated but don't let him know about it. I notice my daughter has one that she uses for Uni lectures (naughty, naughty) and for making notes for her course work before she commits it to her laptop. The one I have seen is even smaller than my little Nokia phone.
Judy.
Just to let you know that legally any secretly taped conversations are inadmissable in the courts - so if you were to do that ( and I don't expect you to bring before the beak ) I don't know what you hope to achieve - but if you were to do that place it in front of him before you start conversing and check his re-action! :twisted:
Sex God
Good on you, i hate it when us 'little people' are taken for a ride! 
Its only by standing up to them, we can show them for what they really are.
Its only by standing up to them, we can show them for what they really are.
