I've been sitting here numbling tiding up lose ends of work with day-time tv playing in the back-ground. I know, that's pretty sad, isn't it?
Anyway, on one of the endless list of *pretentious cue reader leading the the audience* type programmes I've just heard an interesting turn of phrase. Now it's not something I've not heard before. I have heard it and may even be guilty of having used it once or twice myself. But hearing it today made me stop and question the meaning of it. That phrase, as the title of this thread would have already suggested is 'reverse racism'.
I've looked up racism in my dictionary and this is what I come up with...
Racialism, racism (sorry, Queen's English dictionary here)
n a belief in the superiority of some races over others; prejudice against or hatred of other races; discriminating behaviour towards people of another race. - racist.
Now I'm truly not taking the piss or being facetious here. But the context in which this phrase was used delivered the understanding of the phrase to mean people of colour having racist views toward white folk. (and it was a white woman on tv who used the phrase today) And that bothered me. I take affront to that. That makes me feel like only white folk can be racist and all other races get to be reverse racists.
So what I want to know is why has the phrase taken on the conitation that is has? Am I missing something here?
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Reverse Racism
I guess the thing is that black people have been victimised by white people for so long that people have come to know the word "racism" as only that of hatred/persecution of a wihite person over a black person. It has been that prevalent that in this day and age one needs to make a differentiation between who is persecuting whom! Sad isn't it.
Racism sucks - either way.
Racism sucks - either way.
Quote by Libra-Love
Racialism, racism (sorry, Queen's English dictionary here)
n a belief in the superiority of some races over others; prejudice against or hatred of other races; discriminating behaviour towards people of another race. - racist.
Now I'm truly not taking the piss or being facetious here. But the context in which this phrase was used delivered the understanding of the phrase to mean people of colour having racist views toward white folk. (and it was a white woman on tv who used the phrase today) And that bothered me. I take affront to that. That makes me feel like only white folk can be racist and all other races get to be reverse racists.
So what I want to know is why has the phrase taken on the conitation that is has? Am I missing something here?
You are quite right. It is a totally unnecessary word, as the word "racism" has been considered to be perfectly adequate for communicating the meaning, as defined in your dictionary. There is no need to invent a new word, just because some idiots have discovered that blacks, asians etc can be racist to whites.
If that is reverse racism, then what sort of term do we need when non-whites are racist to each other. Perhaps it should be described as "non-caucasian racism"??? Well spotted Libra-Love.
Sex God
perhaps it means the same as reverse discrimination... where for example they actively recruit people with disabilities for jobs even if the non-disabled people are more qualified for it... this is so they can not be labled as discriminating... though in fact they ARE being decriminatory towards able boddied people.
the same can also happen with race issues.. for example having a a criteria of "white people only" to join a group is classed as racist (rightly so), however having a "black members society"... as many places do... is not seen as a problem, though in my opion it is exactly the same..... and IS racist.
i have a feeling that maybe this is what is meant by reverse racism.
the same can also happen with race issues.. for example having a a criteria of "white people only" to join a group is classed as racist (rightly so), however having a "black members society"... as many places do... is not seen as a problem, though in my opion it is exactly the same..... and IS racist.
i have a feeling that maybe this is what is meant by reverse racism.
Hey Libra,
Newbie here.
You're right, racist means racist. I think the trouble these days is that people become so accustomed to certain words that they never really learn what they mean, hence the need to new crooked phrases like 'reverse racism'.
maybe at 26, im getting old and conservative...............
Newbie here.
You're right, racist means racist. I think the trouble these days is that people become so accustomed to certain words that they never really learn what they mean, hence the need to new crooked phrases like 'reverse racism'.
maybe at 26, im getting old and conservative...............
perhaps it means the same as reverse discrimination... where for example they actively recruit people with disabilities for jobs even if the non-disabled people are more qualified for it... this is so they can not be labled as discriminating... though in fact they ARE being decriminatory towards able boddied people.
I stand to be corrected but this is refered to as affirmative action.
the same can also happen with race issues.. for example having a a criteria of "white people only" to join a group is classed as racist (rightly so), however having a "black members society"... as many places do... is not seen as a problem, though in my opion it is exactly the same..... and IS racist.
i have a feeling that maybe this is what is meant by reverse racism.
Then surely we should call it by it's name! When I hear reverse racism I start feeling guilt. Racism is racism no matter who the offender. And yes, it does suck.
If you want to see 'reverse racism' in action take a look at the job adverts for your local council. They try to promote jobs for ethnic groups but aren't allowed to exclude anyone from the advert because that's again the race relations act.
The way they manage it around here is to put something like "Must be able to speak fluent Gurjurati" or "Must be able to speak fluent Urdu" at the bottom of the advert.
Steve
The way they manage it around here is to put something like "Must be able to speak fluent Gurjurati" or "Must be able to speak fluent Urdu" at the bottom of the advert.
Steve
Sex God
libra-love i take your point, but i'd define it like this.
racism is about a power-relationship, so in the west, your white anglo-saxon racist essentially is wielding a form of power over those of other races. that those who suffer that may then develop racist attitudes themselves isn't surprising, but they aren't able to wield the same power as his / her white counterpart. so i think there's a distinction to be made.
IMHO
neil x x x x ;)
racism is about a power-relationship, so in the west, your white anglo-saxon racist essentially is wielding a form of power over those of other races. that those who suffer that may then develop racist attitudes themselves isn't surprising, but they aren't able to wield the same power as his / her white counterpart. so i think there's a distinction to be made.
IMHO
neil x x x x ;)
Quote by steveg_nw
If you want to see 'reverse racism' in action take a look at the job adverts for your local council. They try to promote jobs for ethnic groups but aren't allowed to exclude anyone from the advert because that's again the race relations act.
The way they manage it around here is to put something like "Must be able to speak fluent Gurjurati" or "Must be able to speak fluent Urdu" at the bottom of the advert.
Steve
And that is fine, if you are caucasian and can speak Urdu. You get to apply.
Warming the Bed
I lived in San Antonio, Tx, and the greatest amount of racial tension and racism there was between the African American and the Mexican population. It was so ingrained into both cultures pysches that in many cases they didn't even realise their views were racist, much like some of the BNP supporters here. I later moved back to England with my partner, who became my wife, and who was African American. The only time we came up against any racism was when walking through Brixton as a white man with a black woman and it was me that was the target.
Racism is racism period and as with any other form of discrimination is just extreme bigotry. It comes in all creeds and colours and is equally disgusting. It seems to me that to use a term such as 'reverse racism' is an effort to justify one's own bigotry on the grounds that 'they hate us so it's ok to hate them.'
Racism is racism period and as with any other form of discrimination is just extreme bigotry. It comes in all creeds and colours and is equally disgusting. It seems to me that to use a term such as 'reverse racism' is an effort to justify one's own bigotry on the grounds that 'they hate us so it's ok to hate them.'
Ok try this comment from the Police recruitment site:
We have no vacancies for 2004/2005. However if you belong to any of the following groups we can offer a mentor and Positive Action Training: ethnic minority, female, disabled, gay/lesbian. Please telephone for more information.
From a force in the UK's website... So if I want to be a cop how do I prove I am Gay? Not that I am applying, I looked up details for a friend who doesn't have net access.
We have no vacancies for 2004/2005. However if you belong to any of the following groups we can offer a mentor and Positive Action Training: ethnic minority, female, disabled, gay/lesbian. Please telephone for more information.
From a force in the UK's website... So if I want to be a cop how do I prove I am Gay? Not that I am applying, I looked up details for a friend who doesn't have net access.
Quote by Vix
And that is fine, if you are caucasian and can speak Urdu. You get to apply.
Yes you can and that's why it isn't against the race relations act. In reality though you're saying that only % of the indigenous (probably the wrong word to use) population can apply and probably 90+% of the people they're trying to attract. That's why it's called reverse racism.
Steve
Quote by tallnhairy
Ok try this comment from the Police recruitment site:
We have no vacancies for 2004/2005. However if you belong to any of the following groups we can offer a mentor and Positive Action Training: ethnic minority, female, disabled, gay/lesbian. Please telephone for more information.
From a force in the UK's website... So if I want to be a cop how do I prove I am Gay? Not that I am applying, I looked up details for a friend who doesn't have net access.
Love the fact that you are letting us know you are not prospective filth, and not shouting how straight you are. Very good. I like your priorities. (That was not sarcasm, btw)
Quote by Vix
Love the fact that you are letting us know you are not prospective filth, and not shouting how straight you are. Very good. I like your priorities. (That was not sarcasm, btw)
We have several police officers using this site and having met a couple of them there is no way I could begin to describe any of them as 'filth'. Actually I find the term quite distasteful.
Steve
Quote by Libra-Love
I've been sitting here numbling tiding up lose ends of work with day-time tv playing in the back-ground. I know, that's pretty sad, isn't it?
Anyway, on one of the endless list of *pretentious cue reader leading the the audience* type programmes I've just heard an interesting turn of phrase. Now it's not something I've not heard before. I have heard it and may even be guilty of having used it once or twice myself. But hearing it today made me stop and question the meaning of it. That phrase, as the title of this thread would have already suggested is 'reverse racism'.
I've looked up racism in my dictionary and this is what I come up with...
Racialism, racism (sorry, Queen's English dictionary here)
n a belief in the superiority of some races over others; prejudice against or hatred of other races; discriminating behaviour towards people of another race. - racist.
Now I'm truly not taking the piss or being facetious here. But the context in which this phrase was used delivered the understanding of the phrase to mean people of colour having racist views toward white folk. (and it was a white woman on tv who used the phrase today) And that bothered me. I take affront to that. That makes me feel like only white folk can be racist and all other races get to be reverse racists.
So what I want to know is why has the phrase taken on the conitation that is has? Am I missing something here?
It is funny you should say that because there is this guy from work who comes from africa and he said that he has always been taught that Black people can not be racist due to the fact that its a minority thing.
Sex God
Quote by Vix
Love the fact that you are letting us know you are not prospective filth, and not shouting how straight you are. Very good. I like your priorities. (That was not sarcasm, btw)
:x :x I find this remark to be in extremely poor taste indeed. Whether it is meant as sarcastic humour or not, it has no place on a site like this where we are all supposed to be tolerant of other people and their chosen lifestyles.
I personally know four Police Officers who use this site on a daily basis.
If you are every in need of Police assistance, will you still think of them as "filth" before phoning 999 and asking for help??
Tracy-Jayne
Quote by steveg_nw
If you want to see 'reverse racism' in action take a look at the job adverts for your local council. They try to promote jobs for ethnic groups but aren't allowed to exclude anyone from the advert because that's again the race relations act.
The way they manage it around here is to put something like "Must be able to speak fluent Gurjurati" or "Must be able to speak fluent Urdu" at the bottom of the advert.
Steve
That is not racism, or "reverse racism". It is simply recruting someone for the job who has the right skills. If the person is going to be dealing with people who mainly speak eg Urdu, & cannot speak English, then they need to be able to speak that language.
True hungryp but my post smacks of discrimination, ok in favour of someone you could truthfully say is underrepresented, but it still discrimination. When they have their 'quota' will they then say only non ethnic, gay, lesbian or disabled may apply? I doubt it.
On the 'filth' issue as a member of an emergency service, all be it part time, I not going to comment except to say the vast majority of officers I have met have been decent and hardworking. Point here to remember, they don't make the laws, they just have to enforce them fairly. If you have other experiences I can understand why you would not have such a positive feel for the Police over any other service, but they just doing (mostly) what we (Society) ask them to do.
On the 'filth' issue as a member of an emergency service, all be it part time, I not going to comment except to say the vast majority of officers I have met have been decent and hardworking. Point here to remember, they don't make the laws, they just have to enforce them fairly. If you have other experiences I can understand why you would not have such a positive feel for the Police over any other service, but they just doing (mostly) what we (Society) ask them to do.
Quote by HungryP
That is not racism, or "reverse racism". It is simply recruting someone for the job who has the right skills. If the person is going to be dealing with people who mainly speak eg Urdu, & cannot speak English, then they need to be able to speak that language.
It's called reverse racism because of the way they use it to exclude the people who are not in their target group. I agree that there are some instances where the need to speak fluent Urdu will be an essential tool for the job but there are other instances where the same tactic is used to promote people from minorities into jobs where it isn't.
Steve
I am not the first to say this on this thread, but I thought I'd chip in anyway: reverse racism is where someone is treated better because of their race. Many black people find this as insulting as racism. Well, the ones I know do.
Mind you, it has another name: affirmative action. As far as I can tell, if there is a difference, affirmative action has a basis in good ideas and a genuine attempt to put things right: like when ethnic minorities are encouraged to join the police force or the army. Reverse racism is usually where a black guy is promoted so the company he works for can feel better about themselves.
Screwtape
Mind you, it has another name: affirmative action. As far as I can tell, if there is a difference, affirmative action has a basis in good ideas and a genuine attempt to put things right: like when ethnic minorities are encouraged to join the police force or the army. Reverse racism is usually where a black guy is promoted so the company he works for can feel better about themselves.
Screwtape
Well put screwtape, I also know a number of people from South Africa who got really wound up at certain other members of their own communities wanting affirmative action. They just got up and did there best, and they wanted to get their place in uni or whatever because of who they are, not because they were black. They didn't see why someone who didn't want to try as hard should wave a race card and get in over someone else who had tried harder. Remember before anyone flames me, this was their opinion, and I respected it.
I am in my way all for advertising targeted at minorities, in the end it is about getting the message out at everyones level, so everyone has a fair go at a job and can see themselves in that job. I personally don't think affirmative action (like you only can apply if you a certain bit of society, or we must have 50% women) is the way forward. The only way to be equal is to have a fair selection process that everyone goes through, all the same.
If you don't get your quota then by all means look at the process and see if there is something wrong. Do you need to get the guidance notes written in other languages? Would a helpline staffed with people fluent in the cultures help? Again though if you do it for one, do it for all. An Urdu only assistance line is just unfair, anyone can get confused, so why should only an Urdu speaker (even if they more likely to have an issue) get help?
Big difficult subject, and very emotive. However with regard to your summing up of reverse racism, very neat.
I am in my way all for advertising targeted at minorities, in the end it is about getting the message out at everyones level, so everyone has a fair go at a job and can see themselves in that job. I personally don't think affirmative action (like you only can apply if you a certain bit of society, or we must have 50% women) is the way forward. The only way to be equal is to have a fair selection process that everyone goes through, all the same.
If you don't get your quota then by all means look at the process and see if there is something wrong. Do you need to get the guidance notes written in other languages? Would a helpline staffed with people fluent in the cultures help? Again though if you do it for one, do it for all. An Urdu only assistance line is just unfair, anyone can get confused, so why should only an Urdu speaker (even if they more likely to have an issue) get help?
Big difficult subject, and very emotive. However with regard to your summing up of reverse racism, very neat.
You're right, it is a difficult subject and I don't think anyone wants to fall back on affirmative action. However, as is the case with the police force, nothing else seems to be working. You have to handle it very skillfully though. No one must ever have reason to feel that someone else who is not trying as hard is receiving favourable treatment. From what I can tell, ethnic minority recruits in institutions such as the police find themselves having to work twice as hard as anyone else anyway.
It is indeed a toughie.
It is indeed a toughie.
Sex God
in my area of work women are in a very small minority.
this has meant that there has been a certain amount of positive discrimination in favour of women.
i most certainly have never and would never take or want a job that was being offered to me because i am the only female in the department.. rather than because i am the best person for the job.
this could perhaps seem to people that i am only punnishing myself, but in all honesty.. i would rather have a lower level of promotion and a smaller paypacket and be able to keep my self respect!
this has meant that there has been a certain amount of positive discrimination in favour of women.
i most certainly have never and would never take or want a job that was being offered to me because i am the only female in the department.. rather than because i am the best person for the job.
this could perhaps seem to people that i am only punnishing myself, but in all honesty.. i would rather have a lower level of promotion and a smaller paypacket and be able to keep my self respect!
Sex God
My annoyance is with "ethnicity forms".
Anyone who has worked for a city council knows that you have to fill in a form to declare what race you consider yourself to be.
I think this kind of pigeon holing is the key to inequality.
Once you start moving away from the individual merits of one person's personality you are moving into the realms of generalisation. Once you start generalising about certain characteristics, usually physical ones because these are the most obvious, you are moving towards discrimination. You wouldn't say all people with 'indigo eyes’, for example, are thick and wouldn't employ them on this basis alone.
The same applies for nationality, race, appearance...... etc. Jobs should be awarded on the merits of the individual person applying, not to fill a box on a form because "we are short of people with 'indigo eyes' so we better snap them up" when there is a better applicant right next to them. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
Of course criteria for a job sometimes requires an additional language and maybe will require certain skills, so narrowing the search with these in mind seems sensible because they are needed for the job. So why have a declaration form? Either you can do the job or you can't. Simple as.
So, if racism is white British Vs ethnic minorities what is ethnic minority Vs a different ethnic minority? An example is the children are calling each other in the playground. One child calls a black classmate a "chocolate cookie" in spite. That child turns and calls the other a "pakkie". Both are being racist and it's about time that people realised racism works every which way not just majority on minority or weaker on stronger.
It is a comment that is meant to undermine who you are and where your heritage lies and this can be done to anyone from anywhere. I value the differences we have in this country and the wealth of experience and diversity it brings. The only way to improve this is to be open-minded and to educate tomorrow’s adults that everyone has their own strengths regardless.
G. x
Sex God
Quote by well_busty_babe
i most certainly have never and would never take or want a job that was being offered to me because i am the only female in the department.. rather than because i am the best person for the job.
this could perhaps seem to people that i am only punnishing myself, but in all honesty.. i would rather have a lower level of promotion and a smaller paypacket and be able to keep my self respect!
I agree WBB.
I'd rather know that I was capable of doing my job well rather than a "token employee" to satisfy a tick in a box.
FMC,
You're quite right. I always say that I refuse to take part in any debate on race as my doing so requires I accept there are essential differences between them, which I don't believe. Had I been truer to myself, I'd have helped clear up the misunderstanding of the term "reverse racism" then kept quiet.
Screwtape
You're quite right. I always say that I refuse to take part in any debate on race as my doing so requires I accept there are essential differences between them, which I don't believe. Had I been truer to myself, I'd have helped clear up the misunderstanding of the term "reverse racism" then kept quiet.
Screwtape
Sex God
Quote by Screwtape
FMC,
I'd have helped clear up the misunderstanding of the term "reverse racism" then kept quiet.
Screwtape
Yours and everyones view's are important and through dicussion we learn about things. Don't keep quiet, your views are as valid as the next persons
In the end femmancpl and WBB maybe it is because of the affirmative action that a lot of the minorities don't apply to things like the Police force. I take Screwtapes point though that a lot else has been tried, but in the end if a section of society choses to be under represented, apart from doing everything to invite them, that is their choice.
I don't like ethnic monitoring either as I think it is exactly this worry that % of the population are x race, which means we MUST have staff % = 9 Employees of this type, or we MUST have been racist that worries me.
Also racism is racism in any form and from any person, black, white, or sky blue pink... (apart from a neat description of racism and reverse racism by screwtape above). I have been discriminated against racially, I have been abused for being white. I even had a black lady tell me openly, 'You will do what I want, if you don't I will report you for racial harassment. As I am black you will lose and get sacked, so don't ever disagree with me in the office' Obviously I wasn't harassing her, or anyone else.
We need to get away from the word minority, stop thinking of anything than people. Anyone can be targeted for any number of reasons. All random violence is bad, not just racial incidents. Verbal and physical abuse can follow anyone, and anyone undergoing it deserves our help. Lets not get into my abuse is worse than yours, who can tell. Lets just try to stop where we can it all...
I don't like ethnic monitoring either as I think it is exactly this worry that % of the population are x race, which means we MUST have staff % = 9 Employees of this type, or we MUST have been racist that worries me.
Also racism is racism in any form and from any person, black, white, or sky blue pink... (apart from a neat description of racism and reverse racism by screwtape above). I have been discriminated against racially, I have been abused for being white. I even had a black lady tell me openly, 'You will do what I want, if you don't I will report you for racial harassment. As I am black you will lose and get sacked, so don't ever disagree with me in the office' Obviously I wasn't harassing her, or anyone else.
We need to get away from the word minority, stop thinking of anything than people. Anyone can be targeted for any number of reasons. All random violence is bad, not just racial incidents. Verbal and physical abuse can follow anyone, and anyone undergoing it deserves our help. Lets not get into my abuse is worse than yours, who can tell. Lets just try to stop where we can it all...
