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Road Charging

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The system I'd heard of is GPS based - The car (or rather, black box) logs co-ordinates of where it's been, and these are "databurst" to a collecting system as and when.
Certainly when you think all you'd need is a logging and radio uplinked GPS sat nav type system, that's both more efficient (in terms of true road pricing/ tracking/ accuracy) and more concerning (in terms of Big Brother) than a simple crude pinging method. Though the ping is very similar to how I believe the mobile phone network operates.
And to compare the amount of data in 20 million phone calls to 20 million sets of co-ordinates is a little disingenious of that expert I reckon. Aside from which, for all this "there's x million more cars now" doomsaying, how many are actually ever going to be on the road at any one time. I've got more than one car, and I've yet to work out how to use more than one at a time! smile
Quote by Fun Scottish Couple
Shark - You have to be doing over 33 in a 30 zone, but to be honest i don’t think those black boxes will do as much as is being said by the scaremongers out there, no technology could track 20 million vehicles at any one time and if it did it would cost the earth twice over.

Erm, if it can't track all the vehicles on the road at any given time, then just how will it know where you've been to be able to charge you?
And you think it won't cost twice the earth? This is the technology (backhander?) loving government who don't exactly have a track record of sensible low cost IT implementation...
Well i can only speculate on this but what was said is it'll send out a pulse signal every 5 miles, 1 mile minimum, to calculated you billing mileage and won't and can't track by foot, the expert said tracking everyones exact journey would cause meldown, it would be like 20 million people trying to make a phone call on there mobile phone at the same time on one network, that was question time i heard it on from some communications expert they had on but if you know or have heard otherwise then as i said im only going by what was said by an expert in the field.
Well, the data-loggers will know exactly where you have been, on which date and at what time. This will surely also have the capability of knowing how long you took to traverse any specific portion of road and, like the new "average speed" cameras will be able to determine whether there was a speed transgression. Your monthly bill - paid by Direct Debit no doubt - will more than likely include automatic penalties for taking less time than expected to cover a specific distance. Biometric, electronic ID Cards will include your Driving Licence and your driving priviledges will be withdrawn automatically when you exceed the requisite number of points. This could be tied in with a requirement to insert your ID in the unit before you are allowed to start the engine with heavy penalties for "personation".
The Government's predeliction for biometrics and DNA databases are NOT accidental!!!
Be very assured of that!
1, they will not spend the money on the roads.
2, 1.4 million have signed the petition and yet blair will still go ahead with it, the same way ken livingstone extended the congestion zone in london.
3, the most worrying part is that will will have to have trackers fitted and the goverment will know exactly what we are up to.
I guess the gov will tender out this monitoring to a private company.
will it be like the computer cock up that we had with the CSA, and also the air traffic control 5 yrs ago.
Tom Tom sat nav uses american military satelites which could be shut down if WW3 kicked off, so i presume this system big enough to handle 20 million cars will need its own sat system too, so thats the cost of a rocket and a satelite, plus a giant computor somewhere in india.
What appeal system will be set up to deal with all the cockups?
what happens when you get over charged ?
what happens when thieves steal your car, you still have to pay
All i can see here is trouble
What about essential car users? i cant catch the bus with my job, so i pay more tax, i then put up my prices, and you the customer pays
Quote by Geminifemale
I guess the gov will tender out this monitoring to a private company.
will it be like the computer cock up that we had with the CSA, and also the air traffic control 5 yrs ago.

Without a doubt! And the budget will double over original estimates by at least a factor of 2. And one of Bliars smart friends will be on the board.. probably the present Roads Minister will mysteriously find he has a significant stake in the Company to whom the contract is awarded about which he had no idea until the Mail on Sunday uncovers it and for which he later apologies profusely.
Who says that history doesn't repeat itself :yawn:
Quote by GnV
I guess the gov will tender out this monitoring to a private company.
will it be like the computer cock up that we had with the CSA, and also the air traffic control 5 yrs ago.

Without a doubt! And the budget will double over original estimates by at least a factor of 2. And one of Bliars smart friends will be on the board.. probably the present Roads Minister will mysteriously find he has a significant stake in the Company to whom the contract is awarded about which he had no idea until the Mail on Sunday uncovers it and for which he later apologies profusely.
Who says that history doesn't repeat itself :yawn:
Are we synical by any chance?
Our generation has seen it all, from the Profumo afair to the 45 minute threat of scud attack and WMD, oh and the cash for honours scam
The system will be GPS based. The system to be used is not yet launched, but will be the EUROPEAN Galileo system. Scheduled to be up-and-running by 2010. The prime minister has already said that only those that need to know will have access to information gained by the pricing system: Police, Intelligence community, taxation authorities, benefit agency, local councils, traffic wardens and the new organisation to track the inevitable avoiders. The pricing system will run alongside the soon-to-be-setup ANPR system that will track up to 30 million vehicle movements a day. Those of you who do not use public transport still pay "to use the bus", by about 4 billion a year in subsidy. Road tax may well be ended, but don't count on it. Fuel tax will not be ended....those driving will do less miles, which means less tax. Many will not drive at all, which equals less tax. Some will quickly work-out low-cost routes, which equals less tax. So, my thinking is that road tax will stay and fuel tax will not only stay but may have to rise to obtain more revenue.
Just to cause more problems, the insurers are going to roll-out the in-vehicle driving information logger...so you will be charged for the miles and times you drive. With more being paid for driving at night and early in the morning. That makes the dogging less attractive.
In short, whatever happens you're all going to be up shit creek without a paddle.
Oh, and diesel buses run on high sulphur fuel, so all this "city diesel" is shit too.

Very well informed response Jomu :thumbup:
Did anyone notice the announcement that the fines for using mobile phones are to double?
Not many people being caught 'cos the Police can't be arsed to do it and so commissar Brown's coffers are short.. so, make the dosh up by doubling fines!
When can we have our Country back, please?
Quote by jomu
With more being paid for driving at night and early in the morning. That makes the dogging less attractive.

Stuff the dogging.....What about those of us that work nights evil
Quote by jomu
Oh, and diesel buses run on high sulphur fuel, so all this "city diesel" is shit too.

Says who dunno
Quote by GnV
Did anyone notice the announcement that the fines for using mobile phones are to double?

The penalty ought to be a lenghty ban......
Your car crushed and your phone crushed evil
Quote by Mallock2006

Did anyone notice the announcement that the fines for using mobile phones are to double?

The penalty ought to be a lenghty ban......
Your car crushed and your phone crushed evil
agreed....no sympathy for anyone caught using a mobile while driving....they can double it or treble it....you shouldn't drive and talk on your mobile anyway!
Quote by Mr-Powers

Did anyone notice the announcement that the fines for using mobile phones are to double?

The penalty ought to be a lenghty ban......
Your car crushed and your phone crushed evil
agreed....no sympathy for anyone caught using a mobile while driving....they can double it or treble it....you shouldn't drive and talk on your mobile anyway!
Perhaps shooting them is the way forward then...?
wink
Quote by banlwales

Did anyone notice the announcement that the fines for using mobile phones are to double?

The penalty ought to be a lenghty ban......
Your car crushed and your phone crushed evil
agreed....no sympathy for anyone caught using a mobile while driving....they can double it or treble it....you shouldn't drive and talk on your mobile anyway!
Perhaps shooting them is the way forward then...?
wink
Exellent idea.....
Or hanging........Bring back hanging...
bastinado perhaps or public flogging whip
can we apply the same punishment to those who wear bluetooth headsets in Tescos...?
wink
Well if there was a bus service that ran somewhere near my house to my place of work I could save a hell of a lot of money and get rid of my car which managed to do a whole 1994 miles last year taking me to and from work and the occassional supermarket trip.
I work a mile and a half from home but I need my car because I haven't got time to walk home in time to pick the kids up from school, the only buses that go past here are for people who work in either of the city centres (2 each way in morning rush hour and 2 each way in the evening rush hour) so I can't rely on public transport at all to get me to work.
Having said that I personally wouldn't mind paying per mile of my journey, as long as they abolished RFL to compensate for the expense.
Does get me thinking though... what about the people who claim milage expenses for work mileage, would that 40p per mile (dropping to 25p once you go over over 10,000 miles) increase in line to cover the additional cost?
We have a grand total of around 4 buses a week.
Whilst I agree that something needs to be done about congestion I resent that I may have to say to the kids "no, we can't go to the beach this weekend", so that the affluent can drive without being caught up in traffic.
Much more needs doing to improve public transport and then to deter unnecessary car journeys.
However, has it not struck the government that charging different rates for different roads will push traffic onto routes that just can't cope?
Quote by winchwench
We have a grand total of around 4 buses a week.
Whilst I agree that something needs to be done about congestion I resent that I may have to say to the kids "no, we can't go to the beach this weekend", so that the affluent can drive without being caught up in traffic.
Much more needs doing to improve public transport and then to deter unnecessary car journeys.
However, has it not struck the government that charging different rates for different roads will push traffic onto routes that just can't cope?

Do they care? Why should they when they just open up bus lanes and the like for the personal use of ministers on principal routes dunno
Quote by Mallock2006

With more being paid for driving at night and early in the morning. That makes the dogging less attractive.

Stuff the dogging.....What about those of us that work nights evil
Quote by jomu
Oh, and diesel buses run on high sulphur fuel, so all this "city diesel" is shit too.

Says who dunno
Well..don't mention I said it...but: The company I work for runs diesel fork lifts...they run on red diesel, which is high sulphur....I asked the company that deliver it. The driver who delivers to us also delivers to a bus company in the town...which has its own fuel storage tank for the buses....and the oil used is high sulphur....low sulphur is, apparently, only sold on the forecourt.....in any case, my van runs on hybrid fuel...65% pump diesel and 35% tesco rapeseed oil (53p/litre)
the crux of the issue is that driving about in monstrously damaging 4x4s and 747s is unsustainable, in terms of emmisions, in terms of damage to other citizens of the world, in terms of raw materials needed to build the damned things, in terms of those who might benefit from more efficient use of the world's dwindling fuel resources?
this is a bubble that WILL burst, quite catastrophically!
you don't want increased road taxes. you don't want increased fuel duties, you don't want taxes on emmisions. you don't want road pricing.
what then do you suggest we do, or should we just allow damaging rampant consumerism to go unchecked, to the detriment of those who can't afford to opt in or out of such blatantly self-serving life-style choices? confused
don't get me wrong. i happen to think that satellite tracking of every road user, at their expense, is completely unacceptable ((( said as someone who once tried to sell the damn things! ))) but actually, noones actually said that's what we're getting as yet! it is one proposed solution among many! ;) ))) but it needs sorting.
yes, we need to have useable public transport as the carrot, but hell yeah, we need a stick too. which one would you like? the choice really is yours?
at some point, we have to accept that the damage we do is gonna cost us dear, one way or the other! ;)
neil x x x ;)
p.s. mallock? please don't mention caravans? :P
sorry but cant be arsed to read through all the posts as im sure they the same.
IF and its a very big if they stopped road tax and adjusted fuel duty then it would be fair. but theres no way in hell they will do that its just another way of screwing money out of you to pay for thier own lifestyles.
being an MP should be about the quedos of the job and helping run the country, if you want private sector pay then get a private sector job, but they cant because most are lazy fu**ers.
Quote by neilinleeds
the crux of the issue is that driving about in monstrously damaging 4x4s and 747s is unsustainable

I quite agree....
So tax the fukers that buy them and dont need them...
The term "Chelsea Tractor" came about because of these types...
I have every sympathy with those that run 4x4's and need them.....
I recently went to trade mine in and get something slightly more economical(even though I would be decreasing the safety margin I have when towing....But not decreasing it to dangerous levels) and what I was offered for my car was a pittance....
Meaning I couldnt afford to trade it for anything else....
So now I'm fuked basically....
Cant afford to sell it and pretty soon wont be able to afford to run it....
Quote by jomu
Well..don't mention I said it...but: The company I work for runs diesel fork lifts...they run on red diesel, which is high sulphur....I asked the company that deliver it. The driver who delivers to us also delivers to a bus company in the town...which has its own fuel storage tank for the buses....and the oil used is high sulphur

Well in that case they deserve a visit from customs and excise...
Quote by Mallock2006
the crux of the issue is that driving about in monstrously damaging 4x4s and 747s is unsustainable

I quite agree....
So tax the fukers that buy them and dont need them...
The term "Chelsea Tractor" came about because of these types...
I have every sympathy with those that run 4x4's and need them.....
I recently went to trade mine in and get something slightly more economical(even though I would be decreasing the safety margin I have when towing....But not decreasing it to dangerous levels) and what I was offered for my car was a pittance....
Meaning I couldnt afford to trade it for anything else....
So now I'm fuked basically....
Cant afford to sell it and pretty soon wont be able to afford to run it....
Quote by jomu
Well..don't mention I said it...but: The company I work for runs diesel fork lifts...they run on red diesel, which is high sulphur....I asked the company that deliver it. The driver who delivers to us also delivers to a bus company in the town...which has its own fuel storage tank for the buses....and the oil used is high sulphur

Well in that case they deserve a visit from customs and excise...
It's not illegal to use red diesel in non-road vehicles is it dunno The bowser will have different compartments so you can't simply assume that red is also being delivered to the bus company.
Quote by banlwales
can we apply the same punishment to those who wear bluetooth headsets in Tescos...?
wink

Have you noticed that they tend to be late middle-aged fellas as well?
smile
.
Quote by GnV
It's not illegal to use red diesel in non-road vehicles is it dunno The bowser will have different compartments so you can't simply assume that red is also being delivered to the bus company.

Red diesel is agricultural use only....
Its used for tractors,fork lifts,JCB's etc etc....
A bus is supposed to run on white diesel..
Anything delivering red diesel will not deliver any other kind of diesel as it stains the tanks and it would contaminate any white diesel put in there...
It wont affect the diesels performance qualities but if the holding tanks are dipped by cutoms then traces of red will be found and the operator liable to prosecution for tax evasion.
Quote by Shambolic
The system I'd heard of is GPS based - The car (or rather, black box) logs co-ordinates of where it's been, and these are "databurst" to a collecting system as and when.
Certainly when you think all you'd need is a logging and radio uplinked GPS sat nav type system, that's both more efficient (in terms of true road pricing/ tracking/ accuracy) and more concerning (in terms of Big Brother) than a simple crude pinging method. Though the ping is very similar to how I believe the mobile phone network operates.

yep. a tracking device is basically just a GPS receiver plugged into the mobile phone network. it will either ping positioning data every minute to a basestation, or store it for download in one burst, maybe when the vehicle pulls up at the end of the day.
i VERY much doubt the government could pull off the IT infrastructure needed, given it's track record with just about every IT system ever built for them, nor do i reckon the bandwidth needed to track 20 - 30 million vehicles is available on the mobile phone network as it stands.
tracking is never gonna happen i reckon. course, as is often the way, you float something REALLY controversial, to make the solution that's finally chosen a bit more palatable to the masses.
the monitoring system for a congestion zone in leeds is already pretty much in place. the only reason they're hanging fire i suspect is cos without the much vaunted supertram to offer alternative transport options, it's a bit outrageous to just start charging.
neil x x x ;)
Quote by neilinleeds
the crux of the issue is that driving about in monstrously damaging 4x4s and 747s is unsustainable, in terms of emmisions, in terms of damage to other citizens of the world, in terms of raw materials needed to build the damned things, in terms of those who might benefit from more efficient use of the world's dwindling fuel resources?
this is a bubble that WILL burst, quite catastrophically!
what then do you suggest we do, or should we just allow damaging rampant consumerism to go unchecked, to the detriment of those who can't afford to opt in or out of such blatantly self-serving life-style choices? confused

Firstly, my apologies for only partially quoting you Neil.
Secondly, I couldn't agree more.
However, is road pricing the answer..?
If the crux of the issue is material consumption, road pricing can't possibly be a solution surely..?
In my simple brain you tax people for what they consume and use the proceeds to provide alternatives. A congestion charge does not distinguish between a super economical compact vehicle and one with dreadful fuel efficiency.
There are very sound arguments for taxing increased energy usage but i can't seem to see the logic behind road pricing yet.
I find it surreal that to attend a meeting in London costs me less in my car than on the train, unless i can book well in advance for my ticket.
It doesn't half make my brain hurt.
:shock:
Quote by Mallock2006

It's not illegal to use red diesel in non-road vehicles is it dunno The bowser will have different compartments so you can't simply assume that red is also being delivered to the bus company.

Red diesel is agricultural use only....
Its used for tractors,fork lifts,JCB's etc etc....
A bus is supposed to run on white diesel..
Anything delivering red diesel will not deliver any other kind of diesel as it stains the tanks and it would contaminate any white diesel put in there...
It wont affect the diesels performance qualities but if the holding tanks are dipped by cutoms then traces of red will be found and the operator liable to prosecution for tax evasion.
Thanks for clearing that up..
Quote by Mallock2006

It's not illegal to use red diesel in non-road vehicles is it dunno The bowser will have different compartments so you can't simply assume that red is also being delivered to the bus company.

Red diesel is agricultural use only....
Its used for tractors,fork lifts,JCB's etc etc....
A bus is supposed to run on white diesel..
Anything delivering red diesel will not deliver any other kind of diesel as it stains the tanks and it would contaminate any white diesel put in there...
It wont affect the diesels performance qualities but if the holding tanks are dipped by cutoms then traces of red will be found and the operator liable to prosecution for tax evasion.
The red is a visible marker so that people can SEE that it IS tax-reduced fuel oil. The testable markers are chemical trace elements in the fuel. The bowser/s are marked for each compartment....the one delivering also carried paraffin.
Red diesel can be used on public roads in certain circumstances and in certain vehicles only.
Now, road pricing. Well, the bad news is that it IS certain to proceed. Come what may. A similar system has been running in Germany for commercial vehicles for a few years now, and has generated revenue of 900 million euros. The given figure of +- for the charge is certain to be wildly wrong as well, since it will vary depending on the road, the time of day, and the vehicle. the advantage of using a satellite position based sysetm is that it gives a wide range of options....for instance, the roads within the area you live could be charged at zero while you drive within that area, but the charge will increase if you go further away, and increase (or decrease !) if you drive at differing times.
Mr "A" drives from Luton to London every day. Within 5 miles of Luton he may be charged zero. On a m/way he may be charged at anything from zero per mile (at 0300z) to per mile at peak times. And in the city he will be charged the congestion zone charge. Mr "A" may decide to go via the small roads to escape the m/way charge...he will find that he still pays the same amount anyway....as a "journey from to" charge...ie: chosing a route to escape the charge....
All good fun, there are loads of option available.
The system may well just start charging for m/ways and duals....but it is arriving. In 5 years practically all the major cities will be running zone charging of one sort or another.
Projected decreases in traffic due to charging for distance travelled vary according to the rate levied. The average decrease is projected to be as much as 50% on m/ways and duals. Another decrease is due when commercial traffic has charges levied, the rate variable according to time of travel....another way to get trucks on the roads when cars are not on them.
The gas-guzzling 4WD is unlikely to be around much anyway....the emissions level for vehicles are to be reduced in europe to about 120mg/Km.....big engines are not likely to make that level....(yet)

Quote by jomu
Red diesel can be used on public roads in certain circumstances and in certain vehicles only.

But not in buses rolleyes
Quote by jomu
The gas-guzzling 4WD is unlikely to be around much anyway....the emissions level for vehicles are to be reduced in europe to about 120mg/Km.....

Gas guzzling :roll:
I fail to see the emissions level you speak of being implemented as many saloon cars wont be able to match that let alone anything else....
Why not charge the dirty old buses on their emissions and the clapped out old vans and trucks confused: :?:
My 4x4 does a hell of a lot more to the gallon than they do.......Does less damage to the enviroment and the roads so why the fuk should I be priced off the road :?: :?:
Makes my fukin blood boil..... mad :x :x