Schools close when it snows

2 Dec 2010

Quote by GnV
Society needs to put in place things that will reduce the risk

All this wrapping up of kids in cotton wool....
When I were a lad, I had whooping cough and all my mates were brought round by their parents so they could catch it too (the kids, not the parents).
Sterile kids makes for an unhealthy lifestyle.
But you cropped off the rest of the sentance that said "that still allows the act to be carried out". It is a very important bit that.
That means to reduce it to as low as reasonably practicable. Now if that means that it is still hazardous.........so be it. It doesn't mean remove everthing, there is a difference
Dave_Notts

2 Dec 2010

What closes the schools down round here is transport not gritting on site.

2 Dec 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
What closes the schools down round here is transport not gritting on site.

That is a valid reason. So is the teachers not being able to get in or the heating has broken down.
But if the transport is running, the heating is working and the teachers are in.........then I think it is a very poor excuse to say that the kids may slip so we are closing. Not every school has closed for this but some have.
Dave_Notts

2 Dec 2010

Yeah and then we get back onto contingency plans. Having to have extra staff lined up to grit the site on the one or two days every few years when there's a problem. That just doesn't seem worth the expense to me.
Yup there are cheap contingency plans, our village school, the caretaker got her hubby to drive her in an hour early in his vehicle which is particularly good in the snow, she and the head and the staff gritted the premises and the service road and the school was able to open at no cost.
Bigger premises without such willing volunteers will need a contingency plan that will involve expense. If its that important that kids don't miss school for a couple of days every few years we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for such plans.
I don't think its that important in fact I'm not quite sure how she persuaded me to get up so early to drive her in.

2 Dec 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Yeah and then we get back onto contingency plans. Having to have extra staff lined up to grit the site on the one or two days every few years when there's a problem. That just doesn't seem worth the expense to me.
Yup there are cheap contingency plans, our village school, the caretaker got her hubby to drive her in an hour early in his vehicle which is particularly good in the snow, she and the head and the staff gritted the premises and the service road and the school was able to open at no cost.
Bigger premises without such willing volunteers will need a contingency plan that will involve expense. If its that important that kids don't miss school for a couple of days every few years we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for such plans.
I don't think its that important in fact I'm not quite sure how she persuaded me to get up so early to drive her in.

But thats the point ben. Larger school, more staff. An hour early contingency plan is not going to break the bank. All chip in and sorted.
Don't need an army of extra workers or lots of money. Just a sensible approach.
Now if missing a day or two is no fuss, then why are Ofsted clamping down on it? If the parents have to play ball then so should school.
Dave_Notts

2 Dec 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
But thats the point ben. Larger school, more staff. An hour early contingency plan is not going to break the bank. All chip in and sorted.
Don't need an army of extra workers or lots of money. Just a sensible approach.
Now if missing a day or two is no fuss, then why are Ofsted clamping down on it? If the parents have to play ball then so should school.
Dave_Notts

So I have to either rely on willing volunteers (never terribly reliable) or change the contracts of employment for every member of school staff (after all we will never know who can get in early) to include a requirement to help grit if the weather is bad. Well tbh that aint gonna happen is it? I haven't looked but I bet that flagship school in Telford has just such contracts and just such contingency plans but then that school is run as a business by a businessman.
Lord knows why ofsted do what they do I cant see that they add much value.

2 Dec 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx

But thats the point ben. Larger school, more staff. An hour early contingency plan is not going to break the bank. All chip in and sorted.
Don't need an army of extra workers or lots of money. Just a sensible approach.
Now if missing a day or two is no fuss, then why are Ofsted clamping down on it? If the parents have to play ball then so should school.
Dave_Notts

So I have to either rely on willing volunteers (never terribly reliable) or change the contracts of employment for every member of school staff (after all we will never know who can get in early) to include a requirement to help grit if the weather is bad. Well tbh that aint gonna happen is it? I haven't looked but I bet that flagship school in Telford has just such contracts and just such contingency plans but then that school is run as a business by a businessman.
Lord knows why ofsted do what they do I cant see that they add much value.
If they are public servents then they already have a bit in their contracts that already cover it Ben. It is the bit at the end that says any other duty that is expected of them. Helping out in an emergency is part of that.
For staff to have to look at their contracts to see if helping out to get the school running is part of their job role then they need to think about their dedication to the job. I would question their dedication.
I never said it would happen. I was putting across a point that it could if people tried. But sadly they don't.
Dave_Notts

2 Dec 2010

I dont think the general contract caveats for teachers would cover getting in early and shovelling grit but then I could be wrong.
As for dedication, I like folk who roll up their sleeves and solve problems but then I also like employers to make sure that isnt necessary very often.

3 Dec 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I dont think the general contract caveats for teachers would cover getting in early and shovelling grit but then I could be wrong.
As for dedication, I like folk who roll up their sleeves and solve problems but then I also like employers to make sure that isnt necessary very often.

It will say any other duty Ben and not be specific. This is because emergencies can be many things and they really don't want people running to their contract to see if that work is actually covered in it. Personally, if people have to run to their contracts all the time then they really need to think if the job is right for them.
As you have stated Ben, snow isn't that frequent so employers wouldn't be asking something of their employees very often, just a few days a year.
On an aside note. My car broke down this morning, bloody brakes have actually frozen on and I can't get them released. I have never had this happen in this country before. Anyway, warm clothes on, and I walked the kids in. I noticed that the bridge and steps had been gritted by the council (so they are doing hazardous areas) and when I got to school (Secondary with 1100+ kids) all the walkways were clear of snow and ice by gritting. The junior school that they used to go to was open as well and they only have one caretaker and their carpark and walkways were clear. Three other schools on route, so I had to walk past them, were closed. Just strange to me that two can be open and functioning and three are closed.
Dave_Notts
In edit: My next door neighbour just told me the other senior school has an insett day :doh:. This is a teacher training and no idea what insett stands for. Must be an acronym. So even the other senior school would have been open.

3 Dec 2010

I've just been in touch with my deputy head. All those staff who can get there, are meeting at school on Sunday at 12 with shovels to try to get the school accessible and open on Monday. They've booked a snow plough to clear the drive and main road in.

3 Dec 2010

Its been a while since I saw the contract and job description for a teacher. The ones I have seen contained no such blanket caveat (blame the unions for that I suppose).
I take your point about the local schools that do open in comparison with the ones that don't. Its difficult to guess why. Exceptional cases are just that and are not always, in my experience, easy to reproduce. Nor is it always laudable to do so.
Its jolly nice to have a discussion about these things without rancour or personal affront.
Sorry to hear about your car woes.

3 Dec 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Trying to compare different schools without full knowledge of all the circumstances is pointless.

But that is the whole point of the discussion Kaz. My posts were in relation to:
a) the staff can get in
b) the heating does work
c) the school transport is running
yet the school closes for H&S reasons???? This is what I have a problem with. If it is any of the others then they are valid reasons to close, but not just because of snow or an excuse of the good old "H&S reasons".
Me and Ben are debating about oranges and not apple and oranges. Even though I agree with him about the contract thing, as I am in a union and support what it stands for, personally if an emergency arises the "British spirit" should kick in and lets get things moving again.........whether it is in the contract or not.
Dave_Notts

3 Dec 2010

Yes oranges.
And perhaps we do have a widespread morale problem in schools of which the circumstances here described are indicative. (please punctuate as appropriate my school was closed the day they did commas and didn't have the budget for semi colons)
My experience managing businesses and exposure to teachers and support staff and school management over the years has led me to form the opinion that many schools are badly managed at local authority and individual school level. In such circumstances it is usually the folk at the coal face who end up demoralised.

3 Dec 2010

Not just schools Ben and not just in the public sector. Bad management can be found everywhere.
But there again, the majority of schools are well run, generally there are better managers in the public and private sector than there are bad. To tar everyone with the same brush is not right and this is where a faceless forum can sometimes look like what the poster is saying........just that they haven't bothered to qualify what they actually mean. But thats the beauty of a written forum as so many people take what someone has written a totally different way and the input becomes so diverse........it makes for good reading to me, but boring to others.
Dave_Notts

3 Dec 2010

Yes I agree.
You believe the majority of schools are well run, I believe many are not, which amounts to the same thing.
But I don't think we actually agree on this point. I believe that having managers who can manage people well is the key to a successful business. I think the majority of school governing bodies lack the experience and skills to provide an excellent executive function and I believe the majority of head teachers lack the experience and skills to excel in people management. I don't think the private sector is much different but for the fact that schools don't "compete" and "fail" in the way that private sector service businesses do. OfStEd is not an adequate replacement for a competitive market.

3 Dec 2010

Wow, I go away for a day and I lose track of the conversation lol

Well, Quite apart from the legal and H&S aspects that I explained earlier (which are necessarily valid concerns), there are a couple of other things to say now:
- on the idea of the teachers' contracts requiring that we do any other duty requested, this is not quite true - it is worded along the lines of 'any other reasonable request', and it would be very easy to argue that this was not a reasonable request (I personally would be first to volunteer and was in fact doing just this last night, but many people would rightly say no and be protected by the word reasonable in this clause).
- as for why two schools around the corner from each other are affected differently - this can be due to the fact that they have different physical site layouts, the fact that one school has students bussed in while others are more local and walk, age of the school (older schools tend to have more space per student), and a hundred other differences between the schools.
As for the new-ish topic of management in schools, having had experience of management in both private sector and education, I can tell you that there are inspirational managers and dire managers in both industries. Overall maybe management is better in large, private organisations, but I think that management in schools is generally better than in smaller private organisations. Of course these are wild generalisations and you will find all kinds of exceptions.
Chris

3 Dec 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Trying to compare different schools without full knowledge of all the circumstances is pointless.

But that is the whole point of the discussion Kaz. My posts were in relation to:
a) the staff can get in
b) the heating does work
c) the school transport is running
yet the school closes for H&S reasons???? This is what I have a problem with. If it is any of the others then they are valid reasons to close, but not just because of snow or an excuse of the good old "H&S reasons".
Me and Ben are debating about oranges and not apple and oranges. Even though I agree with him about the contract thing, as I am in a union and support what it stands for, personally if an emergency arises the "British spirit" should kick in and lets get things moving again.........whether it is in the contract or not.
Dave_Notts
But in your previous post you said it was strange to you that some schools are open and some closed,to my mind you cannot just make the assumptions in a&c that you knowing all the circumstances you cannot be sure if the best decision was made.
i suppose i have just heard to much condemnation on the radio and wish people would assume that schools wanted to open and were doing the damnest to do so.
That is the whole point Kaz. They say the magical words H&S reasons. What I am asking for is what are those reasons then? Explain themselves and tell us why. If they are valid then they shouldn't hide behind excuses. You might be sick of people condemning them but the people are condemning them because they do not come up with valid reasons.........just excuses. If thay cannot validate their reasons then they need to look inward.
Dave_Notts

3 Dec 2010

Quote by chris19802
Wow, I go away for a day and I lose track of the conversation
Well, Quite apart from the legal and H&S aspects that I explained earlier (which are necessarily valid concerns), there are a couple of other things to say now:
- on the idea of the teachers' contracts requiring that we do any other duty requested, this is not quite true - it is worded along the lines of 'any other reasonable request', and it would be very easy to argue that this was not a reasonable request (I personally would be first to volunteer and was in fact doing just this last night, but many people would rightly say no and be protected by the word reasonable in this clause).
- as for why two schools around the corner from each other are affected differently - this can be due to the fact that they have different physical site layouts, the fact that one school has students bussed in while others are more local and walk, age of the school (older schools tend to have more space per student), and a hundred other differences between the schools.
As for the new-ish topic of management in schools, having had experience of management in both private sector and education, I can tell you that there are inspirational managers and dire managers in both industries. Overall maybe management is better in large, private organisations, but I think that management in schools is generally better than in smaller private organisations. Of course these are wild generalisations and you will find all kinds of exceptions.
Chris

I would only say it was reasonable if they had a sick note excusing them from that work, or could not make it for a valid reason e.g. holiday, looking after sick kids etc. otherwise they are just being lazy. Frecks put up a post where that school has them going in Sunday. Once again, if one can do it then any can do it. I would have to applaud that headmaster.......... but to bring them in on a Sunday is going too far. get them in an hour early and if it can't be cleared before the kids arrive then that is a valid reason to close as they have tried their best.
The different layouts are no excuse not to try. This is the basis of my argumnet. I can see what you are saying but the excuse is never going to trump the validity of attempting. I know the two schools that have closed and they are nearly identical in layout and types of children that attend........where one is open and the others are closed. The only thing I do not know is can the teachers get in......but if the two that opened can get their teachers in then it is very unlikely the other two can't as they are all city schools and not country schools.
Dave_Notts

3 Dec 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
Wow, I go away for a day and I lose track of the conversation
Well, Quite apart from the legal and H&S aspects that I explained earlier (which are necessarily valid concerns), there are a couple of other things to say now:
- on the idea of the teachers' contracts requiring that we do any other duty requested, this is not quite true - it is worded along the lines of 'any other reasonable request', and it would be very easy to argue that this was not a reasonable request (I personally would be first to volunteer and was in fact doing just this last night, but many people would rightly say no and be protected by the word reasonable in this clause).
- as for why two schools around the corner from each other are affected differently - this can be due to the fact that they have different physical site layouts, the fact that one school has students bussed in while others are more local and walk, age of the school (older schools tend to have more space per student), and a hundred other differences between the schools.
As for the new-ish topic of management in schools, having had experience of management in both private sector and education, I can tell you that there are inspirational managers and dire managers in both industries. Overall maybe management is better in large, private organisations, but I think that management in schools is generally better than in smaller private organisations. Of course these are wild generalisations and you will find all kinds of exceptions.
Chris

I would only say it was reasonable if they had a sick note excusing them from that work, or could not make it for a valid reason e.g. holiday, looking after sick kids etc. otherwise they are just being lazy. Frecks put up a post where that school has them going in Sunday. Once again, if one can do it then any can do it. I would have to applaud that headmaster.......... but to bring them in on a Sunday is going too far. get them in an hour early and if it can't be cleared before the kids arrive then that is a valid reason to close as they have tried their best.
The different layouts are no excuse not to try. This is the basis of my argumnet. I can see what you are saying but the excuse is never going to trump the validity of attempting. I know the two schools that have closed and they are nearly identical in layout and types of children that attend........where one is open and the others are closed. The only thing I do not know is can the teachers get in......but if the two that opened can get their teachers in then it is very unlikely the other two can't as they are all city schools and not country schools.
Dave_Notts
It is much more nuanced than that Dave, they are not the only reasonable reasons not to do something at all. People have their own reasons for either doing requests that are not their job or refusing to, it is not for us to judge without knowing the full story. And I also would say that if you know something cannot be done in the time you have it makes no sense to try anyway - you will only end up upsetting staff who can see that they are doing something pointless. There comes a time when intelligence has to trump this 'Brisish spirit' notion.
Almost as if to illustrate my earlier points, something happened last night that is purusuant. I went in to school with a few other members of staff to shovel some snow and lay some grit and I have managed to put out my back by slipping as I was shovelling snow. I'm a fairly fit guy and manage to run half-marathons and dunk a basketball without hurting my back but one slip and a funny landing has meant that although we got the school open for today - I can't go in to work there. Irony, huh?
The head only let us go in because she knew we weren't the kind of staff that would be putting in claims if something like this happened, but there are many people in my position who would put in a claim (and win) rather than sit at home and play playstation while they recover wink

I'm not too bad and will be back on my feet in a day or so, but if I had been a little older and less resilient I might be out of action for a while, doctors note or not.
I do understand your points of view, but I just think that if you were given the responsibilities that we are talking about you would soon realise that you have to work within the social climate that surrounds you; meaning that whether we like it or not you have to protect your interests as well as those of your company (or school), or else you will have to answer for it (whether you think that is right or wrong).
Sometimes you have to close for H&S reasons, and that's just the way it is. Believe me, most of us would rather be in school making up for lost time rather than compounding the situation and making our jobs harder in the coming weeks (I have GCSE exams just after christmas and losing a week at this point is bad and will mean giving up evenings and weekends later...)

3 Dec 2010

I do get your points Chris but isn't in my nature to just say "sod it, why bother". Sometimes it is better to try and fail than never try at all. If they do not try then they are using excuses, if they try and fail then they are using reasons. Intelligence can only be used when looking at the scale of the job and seeing how many are available. In a very big school the numbers available will not be low enough not to give it a go......but in the eventuality the numbers were to low, then I would say that the more pressing point would be lack of supervision so the school closes for that reason anyway......which is a valid reason.
Looking at the two schools that were open I could see that it was achievable. How many it took I have no idea but they kept it open.
Sorry to hear about your back, I truely am as I know what it feels like. However, is there a claim? The falling over in snow or ice does not make it an absolute that a claim will be successful. Many variables to answer but most insurance will pay out anyway if one comes in as the claim is for pennies rather than hundreds of thousands e.g. anything under £1000 is usually not fought.
It is ironic but you could have slipped going or getting out the car shopping. Just because it happened there does not make it more likely to have happened. Just a bit unlucky I am afraid, but full sympathy to you and hope you recover quickly.
Dave

3 Dec 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
I do get your points Chris but isn't in my nature to just say "sod it, why bother". Sometimes it is better to try and fail than never try at all. If they do not try then they are using excuses, if they try and fail then they are using reasons. Intelligence can only be used when looking at the scale of the job and seeing how many are available. In a very big school the numbers available will not be low enough not to give it a go......but in the eventuality the numbers were to low, then I would say that the more pressing point would be lack of supervision so the school closes for that reason anyway......which is a valid reason.
Looking at the two schools that were open I could see that it was achievable. How many it took I have no idea but they kept it open.
Sorry to hear about your back, I truely am as I know what it feels like. However, is there a claim? The falling over in snow or ice does not make it an absolute that a claim will be successful. Many variables to answer but most insurance will pay out anyway if one comes in as the claim is for pennies rather than hundreds of thousands e.g. anything under £1000 is usually not fought.
It is ironic but you could have slipped going or getting out the car shopping. Just because it happened there does not make it more likely to have happened. Just a bit unlucky I am afraid, but full sympathy to you and hope you recover quickly.
Dave

Thanks for the well wishes Dave, I know it could just as easily have happened anywhere, and it probably would have knowing me lol

Yes, there would be a claim if I wanted to pursue it, because I was doing something I hadn't been trained for (I know we both think it shouldn't need much training, but I've seen successful claims like this before).
From the sounds of it I think we both agree that we should give it a try if people are willing and it looks like it might be achievable, but it isn't worth it if you can see that it is in no way achievable. I think the main disagreement between us is that if the school cannot make it safe then I would say it is closed for H&S issues, but you seem to class that as being closed because of lack of staff (because if they had more staff who were willing and able to help out they may be able to clear the hazards). I can see your point there, but I think that most of the time when a school says it is closed for H&S it is along the lines of my interpretation and not just people making excuses or being lazy; that's certainly been my experience anyway.
Chris

3 Dec 2010

Sorry about yer injury Chris get well soon.
I can see where you are both coming from and I think you are both right.

3 Dec 2010

Ya got a fine example of a school there I reckon kaz.

3 Dec 2010

That account from KaznKev is fairly typical of the kind of H&S issues that we have all been battling with in trying to get the schools open, most people simply don't think there is that much to it and suspect that we are all just making excuses. I'm glad to see that there are some schools out there that are communicating the issues well enough to help people to understand.
Thanks again for the well wishes guys, I should be fine in a day or so.
Cheers,
Chris

4 Dec 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
No mention of the dreaded H&S just a full explanation of the factors which led to the decision to close.

All the reasons they mentioned are valid factors. This is the type of reply I would like to see rather than the rubbish that some schools spout. They attempted but the weather turned faster than they could deal with it........so called it a day. They tried and that is all I expect, true British spirit........but got defeated in the end but they can still hold their heads up high.
Totally different to the ones that let H&S slip off the lips without doing anything.
Dave_Notts