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Should these people be sacked?

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Peanut
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
" You have to brace yourself even to imagine the smell that greeted the police as they enetered the council flat where baby p lived and died. There was dog mess and human mess on the floor, along with the bodies of dead chicks, mice and a dismembered rabbit-food for a hungry rottweiler and 3 other dogs. The living room floor was littered with pornograghy.
If this is in any way true it's very difficult to understand how the various agencies could leave a child in such an environment, not withstanding the allegations of abuse.

Try watching a life of grime or go out for a week with your local Environmental Health Department. This type of home is not uncommon and if they put all children who live in this type of environment into care then I have no idea where the funds would come from.
Dave_Notts
When I was on the ambulances entering houses with similar descriptions was alarmingly common and in my experience was rarely if ever given as a reason to take a child away from its parents into care.
What we have here is a situation where one person's standard of living is being used as a subjective measure on what life should be like for others too.
The fact of the matter is that more families live in squalor than you would reasonably expect in the 21st Century. As such when it is shown to people who don't live in squalor they believe that certain things should happen purely because of the squalor.
Unknown User
Quote by Dave__Notts
Thats very true Dave but....there have been occasions where an employee has done something seriously wrong, and the employer has also been fined or worse.
An employees actions can have a detrimental effect on an employers business, to the cost of that business, be it financial or criminal charges brought.

You can not bring H&S or Food Law charges against the company for the actions of an individual as this would be abuse of process.
You can either charge one or the other over an offence but you can never charge them both. Even if an officer tried......the legal team would throw it out or if they didn't.......the defence would argue in court and the judge would throw it out.
So if an individual committed an offence then the company is not liable. An example of this is when a manager removes a guard from a machine and someone then gets trapped and killed. The company bought the machine with a CE mark, they assessed the machine to see that it was suitable, they maintained it to manufacturers instructions, they trained people to use the equipment safely, they trained people to supervise employees. The company has done all that is reasonably practicable and the individual manager would be pursued with a section 7 or possibly a more severe charge.
Where it may be the company that is charged is when it can be proved that this manager was regularly removing the guard and the Managing Director or Senior Management were aware of this, then the company would be pursued as it was their act or omission (i.e. they done feck all about it) that caused the accident.
Dave_Notts
Sorry I do not agree.
Where there have been train crashes both the driver and the company have been charged...I will try and find the evidence.
Health and safety is a two way street. It is both the employers and the employees responsiblity to ensure health and safety is observed. An example.....I work in the print and a few years ago a print minder took the guards off of a printing press. He after a few months caught his hand in it and lost a finger. Both he and the company were charged by h and s with failing to provide and maintaine satisfactory safety measures.
My point is that both are, and can be held responsible when things go wrong, where both parties knew or were involved in negligence.
Dave__Notts
Sex God
It is irrelevant whether you agree or not. This is how the H&S enforcement agencies work. The link is to an open document on how to identify offenders

The example you used in your mind is one offence. There may have been breaches leading up to the accident and this is what the individual and company could have been charged with.
Additionally, I am unsure what a print minder is? If a print minder is a manager, then another quirk in the law kicks in. Under H&S legislation, a manager at work is no longer a person but is the company. An example here is a General Manager at Asda. If he/she fecks up then in the eyes of the law, it is not an individual that has fecked up but Asda Ltd.
Hope that makes sense to you.
Dave_Notts
markz
Sex God
has this place changed to political heaven then....... rolleyes
Unknown User
Quote by markz
has this place changed to political heaven then....... rolleyes

Why is there a problem?
Plenty of fluffy threads to choose from.
Yes Dave I can see your points.
staffcple
Master of Sex
Quote by kentswingers777
and I have really enjoyed this discussion with you to be honest. It is nice to have opposite views on things, and not end up bickering, it has been pleasent.

Kent,
I could not agree more, I thank you and everyone else who has contributed along the exact same lines.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Dave__Notts
Sex God
Quote by staffcple

and I have really enjoyed this discussion with you to be honest. It is nice to have opposite views on things, and not end up bickering, it has been pleasent.

Kent,
I could not agree more, I thank you and everyone else who has contributed along the exact same lines.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Who said it can't degenerate into childish behaviour
flipa :flipa: :flipa: :flipa: :flipa: :flipa: :flipa: :flipa:
:shock:
bolt
Dave_Notts
Unknown User
I really thought when I started this thread it would go down the same old route. It can be done to discuss a serious issue on here, without the need for slanging matches.....I wonder how many people thought it would? dunno
Am sure as the inquiry goes deeper am sure there will be plenty more opportunities available to all of us, to say what we think.
Peanut
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I really thought when I started this thread it would go down the same old route. It can be done to discuss a serious issue on here, without the need for slanging matches.....I wonder how many people thought it would? dunno

Could be because the Wigan munch is still a fortnight away! :twisted:
Unknown User
Sorry for going off topic slightly but if there are any Social Workers reading this could they please PM me as I have a question relating to a personal problem at home. Thank you biggrin
Unknown User
Heard today that the Mother when released which could be sometime next year, will have a new identity and housing. FFS whatever next...feed her to the lions.
The taxpayer will foot the bill at a massive ammount of our money, as if she has not cost us enough already....still she may not get out of prison alive as the threats have been very strong. Still I live in hope. mad
staffcple
Master of Sex
Kent,
As far as I know they have not even been sentenced yet?
Where does this 'as early as next year' come from? I believe this charge carries a maximum sentence of 14 years?
Ask yourself why the new identity is thought to be necessary?
She has committed a crime, been found guilty and is now at the mercy of the court to decide what punishment she faces, she will serve that punishment and afterwards her debt to society will be deemed to be paid.
Why is that not enough?
Why does she deserve being the victim of mob rule?
Does every criminal deserve the same?
You and a lot of others may not agree with whatever sentence she receives, that is your right, you should be lobbying your MP and trying to change the system then, not calling for people to act outside the law. I said earlier I would happily see them hang, as long as it was done in accordance with the law if it existed. Mob rule and vigilantism leads to one thing...chaos.
Can't you see the absolute contradiction in the illegal treatment of an individual to repay their illegal treatment of another individual?
Simple question....how do your calls to 'feed her to the lions' make you any better or different than her, isn't that after all the same as she did? 'Fed her son to the lions'
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
Heard today that the Mother when released which could be sometime next year, will have a new identity and housing. FFS whatever next...feed her to the lions.
The taxpayer will foot the bill at a massive ammount of our money, as if she has not cost us enough already....still she may not get out of prison alive as the threats have been very strong. Still I live in hope. mad

Kent i don't know where you get your information from,but that information is just scaremongering tosh!!
your a sensible man...do you honestly believe she will be out next year??
why don't you wait till she gets sentenced first!
Unknown User
Quote by Mr-Powers
Heard today that the Mother when released which could be sometime next year, will have a new identity and housing. FFS whatever next...feed her to the lions.
The taxpayer will foot the bill at a massive ammount of our money, as if she has not cost us enough already....still she may not get out of prison alive as the threats have been very strong. Still I live in hope. mad

Kent i don't know where you get your information from,but that information is just scaremongering tosh!!
your a sensible man...do you honestly believe she will be out next year??
why don't you wait till she gets sentenced first!
Legal experts who have discussed this case " believe " she could get four years when sentenced as, it has not been alleged that the Mother was the main aggressor in this case.
A legal barrister believes anywhere between four and six years will be given. Allowing for the time she has already spent in prison, if she got four years she could be free next August.
A good lawyer will argue that as she was not the main aggressor, she will get less than the other two. I am only stating what I have heard on the news, I am no lawyer so am only quoting a legal barrister.
On Dec 15th we will know for sure but....if she does only get four years as has been talked about, she COULD be free next year.
Would anyone here like to bet against that then? Because with the British legal system ( ha ha ), you just know that nowhere near the maximum will be handed down.
I wonder if there is any chance of any of them doing a Fred West? dunno
Unknown User
so... what time is the lynching?
Unknown User
Quote by DeeCee
so... what time is the lynching?

You want a front row seat then? Popcorn and coke on sale too. cool
Unknown User
Quote by kentswingers777
so... what time is the lynching?

You want a front row seat then? Popcorn and coke on sale too. cool
no, its quite alright thanks...... i was thinking of avoiding it personally.
i would settle for sackings/resignations and suitable terms of imprisonment all round...
Unknown User
Quote by DeeCee
so... what time is the lynching?

You want a front row seat then? Popcorn and coke on sale too. cool
no, its quite alright thanks...... i was thinking of avoiding it personally.
i would settle for sackings/resignations and suitable terms of imprisonment all round...quote]
A matter of personel opinion surely?
Peanut
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
so... what time is the lynching?

no, its quite alright thanks...... i was thinking of avoiding it personally.

Ahhh! So your one of those who call for it and rouse people into getting all heated but when it kicks off they bugger off round the corner so as not to be seen to be involved.
Got it, cheers.
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by Peanut
so... what time is the lynching?

no, its quite alright thanks...... i was thinking of avoiding it personally.

Ahhh! So your one of those who call for it and rouse people into getting all heated but when it kicks off they bugger off round the corner so as not to be seen to be involved.
Got it, cheers.
Peanut...your quoting the wrong person...those are not kents words!
Unknown User
I think Peanut knows that. lol
Peanut
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I think Peanut knows that. lol

Actually no I didn't. I thought it was your post.
It was my mistake as I read your post where you'd screwed up your quoting of DeeCee so I read it as that was what you were saying rather than him.
Please accept my apologies, it was my error.
Dave__Notts
Sex God
Quote by Peanut
it was my error.

I need to quote this..............
...........it is nearly as rare as a Frecklebird spelling mistake lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
bolt
Dave_Notts
Freckledbird
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
it was my error.

I need to quote this..............
...........it is nearly as rare as a Frecklebird spelling mistake lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
bolt
Dave_Notts
Or even a Freckledbird spelling mistake! :giggle:
Dave__Notts
Sex God
Quote by Freckledbird
it was my error.

I need to quote this..............
...........it is nearly as rare as a Frecklebird spelling mistake lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
bolt
Dave_Notts
Or even a Freckledbird spelling mistake! :giggle:
Oh bollox redface
Dave_Notts
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
it was my error.

I need to quote this..............
...........it is nearly as rare as a Frecklebird spelling mistake lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
bolt
Dave_Notts
Or even a Freckledbird spelling mistake! :giggle:
Oh bollox redface
Dave_Notts
shouldn't that be "Bollocks"?
:bolt:
Peanut
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
it was my error.

I need to quote this..............
...........it is nearly as rare as a Frecklebird spelling mistake lol :lol: :lol: :lol:
bolt
Dave_Notts
It just goes to show that I do make them and admit it when I have.
The moral of that story is that if I don't admit it then I haven't made an error :P
Unknown User
Nearly fallen off me chair here. lol
Unknown User
Oh well looks like some sort of justice has been done.
At least the head of this mess has now gone. No doubt she will try and squirm some sort of fat compensation ammount, to go with the big fat pension she will no doubt get.
Still one gone how long before the others go to? dunno
Still it was nice to know I was right. lol
browning
Orgasminator
In the times today it said that one of the social workers in volved with baby p was also involved with victoria climie, what a disgrace!!!
I will bet any money you like the head of social services gets a job with another borough.