St. Georges Day

Should the profile of St. Georges Day be raised?

2 Apr 2004

Who was St George? Some bloke who slew dragons, or was it the Three Bears?
In fact he wasn't even an Englishman, but a Roman soldier and an early Christian martyr, tortured and beheaded for his religious beliefs. He was favoured by 12th Century crusaders (hence the cross), who invoked his name in battle due to his reputation as a righteous warrior, but he never visited England and wasn't made patron Saint until 1350.
Almost nothing is known of his life, but it's a fairly safe bet he never fought a dragon and since that's all anyone "remembers" him for, he's a bit of a nothing character really.
I'm all for a national day and a bit of flag waving, and I certainly don't apologise for being English, no matter how much the rest of the world (and in particular the rest of the UK) would like me to, but I can't help wondering whether a few more of my countrymen might take their nationality a bit more seriously if it weren't symbolised by a fairy-tale.
Ice

2 Apr 2004

So where does that leave me? What do I have to celebrate?
I would like to introduce you to Saint Bruce, the patron saint of Australia. Little is known for sure about ol' Brucie. He is rumoured to have been (among other things) an outlaw, a surfer, or a brewer. Although it is unlikely that he ever set foot on Australian soil, his relaxed attitude and "she'll be right, mate" outlook has earned him respect from Australians of every nationality.
St. Bruce's day is celebrated whenever anyone feels like it.

3 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
Who was St George? Some bloke who slew dragons, or was it the Three Bears?
In fact he wasn't even an Englishman, but a Roman soldier and an early Christian martyr, tortured and beheaded for his religious beliefs.
I'm all for a national day and a bit of flag waving, and I certainly don't apologise for being English, no matter how much the rest of the world (and in particular the rest of the UK) would like me to, but I can't help wondering whether a few more of my countrymen might take their nationality a bit more seriously if it weren't symbolised by a fairy-tale.
Ice

Bit harsh Ice Pie. It's not about who St George was or was not. It's about whether we should celebrate our national day or not.
That he may have been of non English origin is beside the point really. The fact is, he Is our national Saint and like other countries, we should celebrate our national day.
Dan

3 Apr 2004

Quote by Cutechick
Bit harsh Ice Pie. It's not about who St George was or was not. It's about whether we should celebrate our national day or not.
That he may have been of non English origin is beside the point really. The fact is, he Is our national Saint and like other countries, we should celebrate our national day.
Dan

Well said!!!
It doesn't really matter who our saint is. What matters is that we are going out to celebrate our saints day. It is a day of recognition of all that is great about our country so if our patron saint was St Orville the Green Duck then I would still celebrate it.
rolleyes

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

4 Apr 2004

St Georges Day?????
It's probably been made illegal by now!!!!!
And we thought it was Dictator Blair Not President Blair!!!!
Alex Claire & Cameron xxx XXX

4 Apr 2004

Woof Alex :D

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
Who was St George? In fact he wasn't even an Englishman, but a Roman soldier and an early Christian martyr, tortured and beheaded for his religious beliefs.
Ice

i thought he was generally agreed to have been Turkish
Mike

4 Apr 2004

Mine Mine Mine Miiiiiinnnnneeeeeeeee!!!
speedo
Luv Alex Claire & Cameron xxx XXX

4 Apr 2004

Gawd... it's like being back at school, 'ere!
Djohn... can I be Australian? biggrin

They never need much prompting to open a few tinnies. :twisted:
But this is what happens when we stand back and let people hijack things. Us English being reserved did nothing when the nazi sickos clobbered our flag and made it their own. Now our flag seems to be s symbol of hatred to many and we're left in the soppy situation where we feel we even have to make statements like "I won't apologise for being English".
Hey Ho.... Anyone for a shag? :twisted:

4 Apr 2004

Of course you can Heather! There's a little Australian in everyone (and if there isn't any in you, I am available wink

).
National pride can be a good thing, but not when it's taken too far. True pride in your country and its achievements is constructive. Turning it into disrespect for others is not.

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Heather
Hey Ho.... Anyone for a shag? :twisted:

Waits in eager anticipation............... lol

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Cutechick
It's not about who St George was or was not.

Someone else introduced St George to the discussion. I responded with my view.

It's about whether we should celebrate our national day or not.

I know. That's why I answered that question in my post.

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
Someone else introduced St George to the discussion. I responded with my view.
It's about whether we should celebrate our national day or not.

I know. That's why I answered that question in my post.
Huh? Of course St George was introduced into the conversation - it's his day after all :doh: :doh: :doh:
Jess & Dan

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Cutechick

Someone else introduced St George to the discussion. I responded with my view.
It's about whether we should celebrate our national day or not.

I know. That's why I answered that question in my post.
Huh? Of course St George was introduced into the conversation - it's his day after all :doh: :doh: :doh:
Jess & Dan
So let me get this straight... you're objecting to me talking about the subject that the thread is actually about?
Lucky for me I don't need your permission. rolleyes

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
So let me get this straight... you're objecting to me talking about the subject that the thread is actually about?
Lucky for me I don't need your permission.

No Ice Pie, I'm not objecting at all. Just can't fathom how you think 'someone else' introduced St George into the topic, when in fact the very first post was about the man himself and his national day :!:
As to whether he was English or not is irrelevant. He is still the national Saint.
The Irish have St Patrick's day, but did you know that he is actually English not Irish? As a young boy he was taken as a slave to Ireland by the Romans. This fact does not seem to detract the Irish from persuing their fun on March 17th though does it?!
Nor for the Scots. Their patron saint is actually from Israel and was a disciple of Jesus. He became their patron saint around 300 years after his death, when his bones were taken to Scotland for sacred burial.
The origins are a non starter as far as we're concerned. After all, can 'you' truely say you are of totally English origin?
I think not - we are genetically all mongrels, made up of Celtic, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Norse and so on . . . . .
The original question was whether we should celebrate, not which part of the globe was St George from lol

:lol: :lol:

4 Apr 2004

Well excuse me for expressing my opinion. In the future I will restrict my responses to questions to a yes or no. What a wonderful conversation that'll make. rolleyes

4 Apr 2004

Errmmm, has any one lost this dummy??
:shock:
I just found it outside the GFZ. It has the initials IP on it so I thought it may have come from here!!! lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Sgt Bilko
Errmmm, has any one lost this dummy??
:shock:
I just found it outside the GFZ. It has the initials IP on it so I thought it may have come from here!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Simply expressing my view Sarge... not my fault if someone else got out of bed the wrong side.

4 Apr 2004

*steps in*
Threads are fluid - have a look around - and all opinions are allowed unless they are against the AUP (look at the very bottom of the screen to see them again). Ice wasn't offensive, rude, unfriendly, racist or abusive and was contributing to an interesting thread which began as one thing and was morphing into another, nothing new there.
biggrin

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
Simply expressing my view Sarge... not my fault if someone else got out of bed the wrong side.

Who was that then Ice?
Just remember, it was 'you' who introduced the question of St George's nationality. Redhot's question was about the celebrations, not St' G's heritage rolleyes

Jess & Dan

4 Apr 2004

Cute
Ice, or anyone else is free to contribute to any thread and introduce any tangent they want. That means you too.
Now, without my Mod's hat on:
The aspect of nationality is so aligned to the Patron Saint and all that that person represents that it is almost impossible to see the line. Yes, St Andrew wasn't Scottish - but then who is? Four Ethopian tribes are the basis of ALL people - it's about the signification of the Patron Saint and if someone doesn't want to aligned to a symbol then fine!
It's about the difference between a National Day (see my posting about Tartan Day earlier) and the Patron Saint - different things mostly.
biggrin

4 Apr 2004

post deleted as requested by Jags. It is however, still on the thread as Ice Pie chose to quote it verbatim.
Will he now be asked to delete his post too?
Jess

4 Apr 2004

Cute - you have a PM from me - please respond.
In Ice's defence you weren't countering his assertion of George's origins, only the reason why that subject was being introduced to this thread.

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
---Snip--- In fact he wasn't even an Englishman, but a Roman soldier and an early Christian martyr, tortured and beheaded for his religious beliefs. He was favoured by 12th Century crusaders (hence the cross), who invoked his name in battle due to his reputation as a righteous warrior, but he never visited England and wasn't made patron Saint until 1350.
Almost nothing is known of his life, but it's a fairly safe bet he never fought a dragon and since that's all anyone "remembers" him for, he's a bit of a nothing character really.
---Snip---
Ice

Does that mean then, that as Jimmy Jesus is not English, we should not celebrate Christmas?
Sure, St. George was not English, and his history may have been somewhat embelished to aid the Chritian cause in history. The fact of the matter is, I posed the question "Should the profile of St. Georges day be raised" - not was he English, Ethiopian, Bagladeshi etc.
Anyway, this is a fun post innit wink

4 Apr 2004

I wasn't going to contribute further to this thread as, although I didn't agree with some of the posts made, I believe those who made them have a right to state their opinions.
To my mind part of being English means that you will fight for the underdog; you will do what is right not what is polictically expedient; you will mock people who try dictate to you; and you will fight for the right to free speech even if what the other person says may make your blood boil. Please remember, we do not have the freedom of speech inshrined in law in the UK.
In these days of the Horseless Carriage we forget that you must always look after your horse before you look after yourself. This is another very English trait that has been "forgotten" to our detriment.
Personally, it matters not what nationality a Patron Saint is/was. It is what that person did or was perceived to have done, that aligns them with the common thinking of the people of that country. It is understood that St George fought for what is right and good, and that is the main reason he is the Patron Saint of England. Abroad, the English are percieved as the people who will fight for what is right and good.
We should have a National Day to celebrate all that is good about England, and there is a great deal to celebrate. It should not be hijacked, by anyone, for cheap political point scoring.

4 Apr 2004

Mods hat on:
Ice Pie V Cutechick
Jags has asked Cutechick to either substantiate her claim (by forwarding the evidence to a Mod) that Ice Pie sent an 'abusive PM', or withdraw the remark from the thread. So far, Cutechick has not done so but it fairness it's possible she hasn't picked up on that message from Jags.
I don't beleive it's acceptable to make a public claim like that without being prepared to back up that claim. I won't delete the posts in question myself as I don't believe Ice Pie would want that.
Mods hat off.
Hxx

4 Apr 2004

Quote by RedHot
Does that mean then, that as Jimmy Jesus is not English, we should not celebrate Christmas?

That's not a great analogy IMO, since Jesus doesn't purport to represent a country, but I take the symbolic point.

Sure, St. George was not English, and his history may have been somewhat embelished to aid the Chritian cause in history. The fact of the matter is, I posed the question "Should the profile of St. Georges day be raised" - not was he English, Ethiopian, Bagladeshi etc.
Anyway, this is a fun post innit

As a symbol of Englishness you mean? No I don't think so: I would support moves to make the celebration of our nation/national day day more high profile, but I don't think that specific symbol really represents anything particularly English. It's actually a metaphor for military prowess, as I alluded to earlier, and although I'm not a pacifist I hope there are loftier things about our national character that we can be proud of than the ability to wage war. I kind of feel the same way about the British national anthem (forgive the diversion but it relates to the theme), which is a song about conquest and subjugation, which I hope we've managed to grow out of by now.
I am a very patriotic man, I'm just not comfortable with some of our traditional symbols.
Ice

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Cutechick
Ice Pie has now it seems, taken to personal abuse via the pm system. :cry:
I have not, nor would I, personally abuse him or anyone else. I was simply countering his suggestions of St' G's origins. My views are plain and not insulting in the least.
Therefore, I will not continue this thread if it means I will be insulted in this very private way. :cry:
Jessica

Please yourself I'll do it here then.
The PM in question says:
"Just to let you know...
Rather than allow myself to become upset about any more of your dummy throwing, I shall simply ignore you henceforth. Take your temper out on someone else, I'm not interested."
That is an expression of my lack of interest in pointless bickering. If you want to call it abuse, fine, I really have neither the time nor the inclination to worry about it.

4 Apr 2004

I just attempted to cast my vote on the poll and got taken to the SH welcome page.
Is the rest of the day going to be as surreal?

4 Apr 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
As a symbol of Englishness you mean? Ice

No, as the National Day, It just happens St. George is the symbol chosen as our national 'Partron Saint'.
Forget religion, forget the symantics of the personage chosen as the symbol, forget politics - celebrate St. Georges day as the national day of England, for whatever it means to YOU as an Enlishman (using the term for all, I'm not into *man *woman - too 'PC' for me rolleyes

) be it drinking warm beer, or ginger beer or cycling thorough leafy Devon lanes or whatever.
You are now along the right lines though wink

we could choose any name for it, but it should be celebrated in any case. Englishness means many things to many people, to some there is no difference between 'British' and 'English' - I am not one of those people.
England has given much to the world in many ways, though some people would like us to forget a lot of things England has been responsible for, and write them out of history - too late, they happened, nothing you can do about it now.
We have allowed ourselves to be overgoverned and 'nannied' by the state, too many voices have remained silent when maybe we should have stood up and said something, leading to the sorry state of affairs we have now where we're not even allowed to call ourselves English ffs!
I could get drawn into all kinds of aspects here, I too dislike our National Anthem, but for different reasons than you - it is not about England, or indeed Britain, but the reigning Monarch. It should be about the COUNTRY. But that is for a different place and time :wink:
Interesting topic isn't it :roll:
Jon