Swinging and BDSM/Fetish - Is there a crossover?

14 Jun 2012

Hi everyone,
New to Swinging Heaven and if I am honest I am more involved in the BDSM/Fetish style of things than swinging but I thought I would investigate to see if it was for me.
From my brief reading of posts and talking to people in the swinging scene it seems there are similarities and differences between the two. I have been to events where the two 'camps' have attended and yes some people seem to accept both but there was also the:
Swingers: "What the hell is he doing to her with that cane, that's just wrong"
Fetish: "Do these people know nothing about personal space" Yes I know these are huge generalisations of peoples comments but I think you get the idea.
My question is do people see there being a crossover between the two or is it a case of you either do one or the other?

14 Jun 2012

I think that you will find too many variances to be able to conclude anything other than that which is obvious to you. There are so many different types of person on all of these sites, all with varying agendas, and with differing experiences and expectations. The bulk will always be the guys, single or otherwise, who will be just whatever it takes in order to find some action. When it comes to bdsm, most people have no real realisation of the extent of punishments meted out. Few people really understand fetishes either, and they just won't fit into any particular niche. I'm sure voyeurs appear in all sorts of clubs, regardless of the activity taking place.
Whether or not you will find what you are seeking here really depends on your own agenda, and how much time and effort you're willing to invest in order to find it.
If you actually, as I'm sure you already have, look at the "fetish" photo ads, you'll be as surprised as me to see that what most advertisers seem to consider a fetish is the sort of stuff you can see in public every day. So what we might consider normal behaviour can be way way out there with others. The pool of people on the site is vast.

14 Jun 2012

Hello Skinny,
Thank you for replying smile

I will be the first to admit my question is very general and can never be definitively answered one way or the other but I am very interested to see peoples opinions.
There are many different types of people in all 'groups' but they usually have common interests and beliefs besides the main reason they have got together. I see this in the Fetish scene with a lot (but not all) having quite liberal attitudes to some things but quite strong objections to others.
It's funny you mention guys, single or otherwise, one of the things that seems to be the same for both Swinging and Fetish is that there are lots of single guys looking for action, lots of couples looking for bi-fems and not many single females, it must be the way of the world lol.
What I am seeking here has yet to be answered, I suppose one thing is people to converse with so I am doing well so far.
It is interesting what people consider 'kinky' especially with the rise of the book '50 Shades of Grey', things I see as common, people are aghast at and things I might do in private would horrify some, I suppose that's what made me ask the question in the first place.
The best thing I can do is read the forums, take in what people say and then try to see if there is a crossover, for me at least.

14 Jun 2012

Quote by greenbook
Hi everyone,
New to Swinging Heaven and if I am honest I am more involved in the BDSM/Fetish style of things than swinging but I thought I would investigate to see if it was for me.
From my brief reading of posts and talking to people in the swinging scene it seems there are similarities and differences between the two. I have been to events where the two 'camps' have attended and yes some people seem to accept both but there was also the:
Swingers: "What the hell is he doing to her with that cane, that's just wrong"
Fetish: "Do these people know nothing about personal space" Yes I know these are huge generalisations of peoples comments but I think you get the idea.
My question is do people see there being a crossover between the two or is it a case of you either do one or the other?

we find we have to do both very separately and have found we need a very different attitude for each
we will say we don't find swinging no where near as adult (in peoples behaviour) as we do the bdsm scene the whole respect thing is very different indeed
we would suggest that you treat both very differently a bit like having two hobbies
hth

14 Jun 2012

Quote by greenbook
What I am seeking here has yet to be answered

:welcome:
I think any overlap you find will depend on how you define "the scene". I can only speak from the vantage point of... a relative newbie that hardly belongs to either. I think, if anything, the BDSM crowd are more sincere about/committed to sexual deviance, and the swinging crowd are more focused on hedonism.
There is a small amount of people on here that are truly devoted to D/s, quite a few that will play that way but would not quite identify with it, and a lot that even though they play that way, they either put it down to sheer experimentation or else totally fail to recognise/downright deny that their practices fall in the BDSM spectrum. Then there's the really straight ones smile

(if only I had a pound for every profile that said "no pain, WS or weird stuff"!).
Overall I'd dare say that swinging communities as a whole hold on to a little of the old-school modus operandi, but on an individual level there is plenty of variation (and thank fuck for that :lol: ). So just pick them out! At the end of the day, there are enlightened people (sexually and otherwise) to be found in either set (just as there are plenty of narrow-minded bigots about, again in either set).

14 Jun 2012

One of the things that I have observed is that whilst swingers often highly associate BDSM with sex, someone in the BDSM scene doesn't necessarily hold that view but that doesn't mean that both cannot share areas of commonality.

14 Jun 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
SNIP we find we have to do both very separately and have found we need a very different attitude for each.
SNIP we will say we don't find swinging no where near as adult (in peoples behaviour) as we do the bdsm scene the whole respect thing is very different indeed

Hi Lizaleanrob, its interesting that you approach each separately. I will be honest I have noticed a difference in both behaviour and the way respect in handled. With behaviour it seems the swinging scene treat the whole thing as uncomplicated fun while the Fetish scene treat it more seriously.

Quote by mincepie
SNIP I think, if anything, the BDSM crowd are more sincere about/committed to sexual deviance, and the swinging crowd are more focused on hedonism.
SNIP (if only I had a pound for every profile that said "no pain, WS or weird stuff"!).

Hi mincepie, I love your way of describing the respective groups attitudes to what they do, they seem quite accurate.
No weird stuff? Is that like not putting sultanas in salad ;)

Quote by I_am_joy
One of the things that I have observed is that whilst swingers often highly associate BDSM with sex, someone in the BDSM scene doesn't necessarily hold that view but that doesn't mean that both cannot share areas of commonality.

15 Jun 2012

Quote by greenbook
One of the things that I have observed is that whilst swingers often highly associate BDSM with sex, someone in the BDSM scene doesn't necessarily hold that view but that doesn't mean that both cannot share areas of commonality.

Hi I_am_joy, you are quite right, people in the fetish scene can 'play' (As they call it) without it being sexual, sex can be part of the mix but doesn't have to be included. I suppose that is one difference between the two, you couldn't have swinging without sex lol
To say that both scenes are widely misunderstood and misinterpreted by those outside it would be an understatement! The fact that people from one camp will misunderstand and query the other... is just a little sad and unfortunate. I guess all is not right in the world!
I will have to disagree with the bit I put in bold. An equivalent statement would be "you couldn't have BDSM without pain" - just because something features so widely that it becomes a defining element doesn't mean that it is a prerequisite. Curiously, those that are into the social side of swinging (and there are lots of them here in the forums!) can and do spend relatively vast amounts of time socialising rather than playing - so no, "naughty fun" need not be a priority here either! (a phrase whose vacuity still makes my stomach churn, by the way).
Of course everybody approaches swinging for different purposes, and sure there are a lot of people drawn in because they want to get their rocks off in the least complicated way. But from what I have seen, for the more dedicated, "lifestyle" swingers, this is about enjoying the company of others - in a multitude of ways including sexually. At its best it can be a very positive, liberating and life-affirming experience - it's not all mindless rutting you know. hump

:lol2:

15 Jun 2012

really could get into writing a serious essay regards this stuff
we can go into any London fetish club and leave Liza to her own devises as a Domme upon my return I'm likely to find is she's lucky a purring sub fem by her side and a guy or two at her feet, all showing the greatest of respect with Liza being un-bothered and certainly not flustered and fully in control of her situation
now if we went into a swinging club do i really think i could leave her on her own i know i can't unless we're in the company of another couple
we also found that swinging was about sex /shagging and the body, where as Bdsm was a complete discovery about someones body and mind and senses with zones being found that where far more erotic than could ever be imagined , would i bring it into a swinging meet NO is the answer as most would not want to understand let alone try,
the only why i can describe it is swinging is like doing the okie cokie and Bdsm is like being fully conversant in all forms of ballroom dancing

15 Jun 2012

There are two ways, as I see it, which might help you in your quest. Firstly, and this is quite general advice which goes out to newbies to swinging heaven, go to a social. In your case I'd be inclined to head for one of the bigger events, meet more people. The other thing is that you might consider setting up your own group and your own bdsm chatroom to attract likeminded individuals and those dabbling peripherally. I know there are lots who will experiment too, to some degree.
I personally have limited experience in the bdsm scene, but I do enjoy some of it, and I do get the psychological twists too. For myself, however, it's generally sexually motivated, but not always. I'll happily whip a guys ass without ever feeling inclined to fuck him for instance. Good luck with it all.

15 Jun 2012

Quote by mincepie
SNIP I will have to disagree with the bit I put in bold. An equivalent statement would be "you couldn't have BDSM without pain" - just because something features so widely that it becomes a defining element doesn't mean that it is a prerequisite. Curiously, those that are into the social side of swinging (and there are lots of them here in the forums!) can and do spend relatively vast amounts of time socialising rather than playing - so no, "naughty fun" need not be a priority here either! (a phrase whose vacuity still makes my stomach churn, by the way).

Hi Mincepie,
Not to be too pedantic but to have an interest in BDSM (Bondage, Discipline and SadoMasochism) I would have thought you would need a bit of an interest in pain ;)
I do understand when you are saying, Fetish isn't all about pain and Swinging isn't all about sex. One question I have though is if people are only here for the social side of things (not sex) then why swinging and not Country Dancing?
Kudos for 'vacuity' smile

15 Jun 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
really could get into writing a serious essay regards this stuff
we can go into any London fetish club and leave Liza to her own devises as a Domme upon my return I'm likely to find is she's lucky a purring sub fem by her side and a guy or two at her feet, all showing the greatest of respect with Liza being un-bothered and certainly not flustered and fully in control of her situation
now if we went into a swinging club do i really think i could leave her on her own i know i can't unless we're in the company of another couple
we also found that swinging was about sex /shagging and the body, where as Bdsm was a complete discovery about someones body and mind and senses with zones being found that where far more erotic than could ever be imagined , would i bring it into a swinging meet NO is the answer as most would not want to understand let alone try,
the only why i can describe it is swinging is like doing the okie cokie and Bdsm is like being fully conversant in all forms of ballroom dancing

Hi Lizaleanrob,
Don't let me stop you with your essay, I would love to read it smile

Sadly what you say about respect and etiquette and the differences between the respective scenes I have been told by others. I would have to say that most Fetish events I have been to are some of the safest club environments for women. From my first time visiting a fetish event etiquette, respect and consent were drummed into me as the most important thing and non consensual touching is very rare to the point than when it does happen it causes a huge cafuffle.

15 Jun 2012

Quote by skinny
There are two ways, as I see it, which might help you in your quest. Firstly, and this is quite general advice which goes out to newbies to swinging heaven, go to a social. In your case I'd be inclined to head for one of the bigger events, meet more people. The other thing is that you might consider setting up your own group and your own bdsm chatroom to attract likeminded individuals and those dabbling peripherally. I know there are lots who will experiment too, to some degree.
I personally have limited experience in the bdsm scene, but I do enjoy some of it, and I do get the psychological twists too. For myself, however, it's generally sexually motivated, but not always. I'll happily whip a guys ass without ever feeling inclined to fuck him for instance. Good luck with it all.

Hello Skinny,
Thanks for your advice, it is appreciated.
I will be honest I don't know about a social, I don't know if my thought patterns would fit in with others. At the moment I am used to the Fetish style of things and it might be a shock to the system until I am used to the lay of the land.
I did have a look at the groups on here and it does seem to be a bit of a wasteland for fetish related chat, thats what got me to ask this question. I thought I might have made an error in joining as there seemed to be no one chatting about this interest but when I did a search for people with interests of either S&M or B&D it came up with 1600+ pages lol so they must be out there.
For me all my BDSM related activities are sexually motivated, sometimes as foreplay sometimes for the buzz of control but it's all sexually in style.

15 Jun 2012

Quote by greenbook
I did have a look at the groups on here and it does seem to be a bit of a wasteland for fetish related chat, thats what got me to ask this question.

Just to let you know, I have never known a group on here to contain any current discussion. Try the chatrooms also, I would be interested to hear how you fare there :twisted:
I will come back to reply to the rest at some other point.

15 Jun 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
we also found that swinging was about sex /shagging and the body, where as Bdsm was a complete discovery about someones body and mind and senses with zones being found that where far more erotic than could ever be imagined , would i bring it into a swinging meet NO is the answer as most would not want to understand let alone try

No! Swinging has always been primarily a mental thing for me, and I like to think some of the people I've played with. A mutual exploration of the erotic possibilities our minds, and bodies when put together enable. Quite how they're put together physically is neither here nor there? confused

I don't for one minute imagine I'm in some way an exception that proves a rule. Sweeping stating that doesn't stand scrutiny IME.

Quote by greenbook
Sadly what you say about respect and etiquette and the differences between the respective scenes I have been told by others. I would have to say that most Fetish events I have been to are some of the safest club environments for women. From my first time visiting a fetish event etiquette, respect and consent were drummed into me as the most important thing and non consensual touching is very rare to the point than when it does happen it causes a huge cafuffle.

15 Jun 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
SNIP Only an idiot would imagine for a moment you could invade someone's space, sexually or otherwise, so struggling to understand the distinction made? The fact there are idiots about who don't understand that does not change what swinging is.

I agree only an idiot would think that and I agree it doesn't change what swinging is but in the same way a few football hooligans out of thousands of supporters may make someone think twice about attending a match, a few idiots who do think it is ok to non-consensually touch people in a club might put people off swinging.
The point I was trying to make is that I have only heard about this kind of thing happening once or twice in my 10 years in the fetish scene but I have spoken to at least 3 people in the last year who have experienced it at swinging events. I realise this is only 3 people out of the many thousands who enjoy the swinging scene but I can only go on what people I have spoken to have told me.
I am not trying to say one is better than the other, my post was asking if there is a crossover, it was not meant as an attack at either the fetish or swinging scene.

16 Jun 2012

I am not trying to say one is better than the other, my post was asking if there is a crossover, it was not meant as an attack at either the fetish or swinging scene.

Nor did I mean to imply anything of the sort. ;)

The point I was trying to make is that I have only heard about this kind of thing happening once or twice in my 10 years in the fetish scene but I have spoken to at least 3 people in the last year who have experienced it at swinging events. I realise this is only 3 people out of the many thousands who enjoy the swinging scene but I can only go on what people I have spoken to have told me.

Is it perhaps that the swinging scene has had lots more publicity ( SH has had loads of media attention: Stan Collymore, referenced in the red tops, etc ) so inevitably draws more idiots than the BDSM scene, the BDSM scene being perhaps a tad more underground, and not so well understood? ( or indeed, marketable? ) The BDSM scene is perhaps a little harder to wrap your head around for most, myself included, and so attracts less of the quick lay brigade, likely to get it wrong? confused

16 Jun 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
we also found that swinging was about sex /shagging and the body, where as Bdsm was a complete discovery about someones body and mind and senses with zones being found that where far more erotic than could ever be imagined , would i bring it into a swinging meet NO is the answer as most would not want to understand let alone try

I don't for one minute imagine I'm in some way an exception that proves a rule. Sweeping stating that doesn't stand scrutiny IME.
did you see how i used that word wink

Quote by greenbook
Sadly what you say about respect and etiquette and the differences between the respective scenes I have been told by others. I would have to say that most Fetish events I have been to are some of the safest club environments for women. From my first time visiting a fetish event etiquette, respect and consent were drummed into me as the most important thing and non consensual touching is very rare to the point than when it does happen it causes a huge cafuffle.

Mutual respect and etiquette were drummed into me on here too. Not that I'd ever have thought anything non-consensual without previous permission until someone explained that to me was ok you understand? Only an idiot would imagine for a moment you could invade someone's space, sexually or otherwise, so struggling to understand the distinction made? The fact there are idiots about who don't understand that does not change what swinging is.
next time ya in London i gotta take ya to a fetish club buy you a drink show you around do let me know if ever you visit our capital city
one of the things i like about taking new people to the fetish clubs is the shock of how well its self regulated and self policed as Greenbook explains just how adult it is. by comparison most swingers clubs are almost Neanderthal
sorry Neil these generalisations ain't posted to offend sadly its how we have found the differences in the two scenes, and also why we treat the two scenes very differently and feel that for most there would not be a crossover as such

16 Jun 2012

sorry Neil these generalisations ain't posted to offend sadly its how we have found the differences in the two scenes, and also why we treat the two scenes very differently and feel that for most there would not be a crossover as such

Fair enough, and no offence taken whatsoever. ;) I guess what I was driving at is that there are, or can be broad similarities as far as mindset and approach go between the two ( AFAICS from the very little I know of the BDSM scene or the very few people I've met who are into it ) for a good few of us I think, that aren't related to the actual practices engaged in. In that sense I think there's more of a cross-over than has maybe been suggested.
I'd take you up on the visit BTW. Planned a few times to get to a local munch and club night in Leeds, always bottled out thinking they might be a bit hard-core for me being somewhat sub and I'd be out of my depth! rolleyes

16 Jun 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
SNIP ...the BDSM scene being perhaps a tad more underground, and not so well understood? ( or indeed, marketable? ) The BDSM scene is perhaps a little harder to wrap your head around for most, myself included, and so attracts less of the quick lay brigade, likely to get it wrong?

Morning neilinleeds, were you up early or just to bed late ;)
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I get the feeling that when people are starting to be more adventurous with their sex life and are looking for new types of excitement swinging is a lot more accessible which is both one of its plus points but also can be a problem (Quick lay brigade).
Also the BDSM scene can be further fragmented between the clothing fetishists (Those that like a good club night dressed in their rubber) and the BDSM'ers (Those more interested in the mental and physical control) so to someone new its not always so easy to initially get involved.

16 Jun 2012

Quote by greenbook
Morning neilinleeds, were you up early or just to bed late ;)

Morning Greenbook. smile

A bit of both fella, a bit of both. My sleeping pattern's a bit to cock at the moment. Be getting on time for a snooze before long. rolleyes

17 Jun 2012

Having discussed it, we don't think there can be a "real" crossover. Much hangs on how serious you are regarding one or the other. Barny could not engage in any sort of BDSM with another woman (does that mean he isn't a proper master?), and Bex couldn't be submissive to anyone else (does that mean she just plays at being submissive and isn't really submissive).
Swinging, however - well what is that? To us it is just sex with other people, nothing more and nothing less, but to some, that is too simplistic an approach.
Horses for courses really, and just because we don't think there can be a crossover - because it isn't "real" for us - that does not equate to another couple who may have no problem in introducing an element of reality (however you choose to classifiy reality in terms of BDSM and swinging).
Either way, there is no cross over for us.

18 Jun 2012

Quote by HimandHer
Having discussed it, we don't think there can be a "real" crossover. Much hangs on how serious you are regarding one or the other. Barny could not engage in any sort of BDSM with another woman (does that mean he isn't a proper master?), and Bex couldn't be submissive to anyone else (does that mean she just plays at being submissive and isn't really submissive).
Swinging, however - well what is that? To us it is just sex with other people, nothing more and nothing less, but to some, that is too simplistic an approach.
Horses for courses really, and just because we don't think there can be a crossover - because it isn't "real" for us - that does not equate to another couple who may have no problem in introducing an element of reality (however you choose to classifiy reality in terms of BDSM and swinging).
Either way, there is no cross over for us.

Hello HimandHer,
That's an interesting point. On the BDSM side of things I suppose you could say it is a lot more monogamous within the BDSM connection. People go to clubs to play and play in the same room together but usually only play with their respective partner, they don't swap.
I suppose this goes back to a point made earlier that BDSM can be a more mental connection where submission is concerned whereas swinging could be seen as more of a hedonistic pleasure, a joy of the flesh.

23 Jun 2012

It has interested me that I have found within the BDSM/fetish scene how many people do not see their fetish as a sexual but separately. I know a number of people who engage in a BDSM relationship without sex being part of it. Personally I like it to be part of my sexual experience and therefore there is a strong cross over for me. There has been different etiquettes evolve in the different communities though so if you want to be part of both you need to make sure you're following the right code of conduct. I think it's a shame there aren't more BDSM swinging nights but someone did tell this this is a major headache from a licencing point of view in a venue. There is a large cross over, it's only really the extremes within each group which don't.

25 Jun 2012

Quote by lillac_bunny
It has interested me that I have found within the BDSM/fetish scene how many people do not see their fetish as a sexual but separately. I know a number of people who engage in a BDSM relationship without sex being part of it. Personally I like it to be part of my sexual experience and therefore there is a strong cross over for me. I think it's a shame there aren't more BDSM swinging nights but someone did tell this this is a major headache from a licencing point of view in a venue. There is a large cross over, it's only really the extremes within each group which don't.

Hello lillac_bunny, thank you for your post.
I am not aware of any licencing issues with regards to running a BDSM and Swinging event at a swinging venue, if the venue has a sex licence then it is ok. I can only presume it is with regards to swinging at a BDSM event, as a lot of BDSM events are not run from venues with a sex licence and so the swinging aspect is curtailed.
I am interested in your comment about there being a large crossover, from the previous comments on this thread it hasn't seemed that way so can I ask how you came to this belief.

25 Jun 2012

:welcome: greenbook!
Kudos for a bloomin' great entrance to the forum! Now, I'm off to make a brew and ponder... will post properly in a bit.
x

26 Jun 2012

Quote by noladreams
:welcome: greenbook!
Kudos for a bloomin' great entrance to the forum! Now, I'm off to make a brew and ponder... will post properly in a bit.
x

Thank you noladreams, I do try ;)