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The Iron lady

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Quote by varca
Didn't Thatcher bring out the "right to buy council houses" ??

She did.
well she did one good thing then!
Is it a good thing though? So the council have built lots of new houses for those who cannot afford to buy privately? Social housing availabilty has dramatically declined since Maggie approved this. Waiting lists are horrendous. Our homeless figures are sky high. I am all for the new legislation which will revoke the right to buy rule.
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.
Quote by Laclau
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
Quote by Kiss
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
Irony - my grandparents were exactly the same!
Quote by Laclau
Didn't Thatcher bring out the "right to buy council houses" ??

She did.
well she did one good thing then!
Is it a good thing though? So the council have built lots of new houses for those who cannot afford to buy privately? Social housing availabilty has dramatically declined since Maggie approved this. Waiting lists are horrendous. Our homeless figures are sky high. I am all for the new legislation which will revoke the right to buy rule.
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.
so can anyone here afford £250,000 pounds to buy something...we rented out house,but even with my wifw and myself combined wages....we couldn't even get a two bedroom flat in London...so we bought our house...simple as that...then one day we will sell itand hopefully and live where we want to...so yes "right to buy" was good for us!
Quote by Kiss
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Quote by varca
Didn't Thatcher bring out the "right to buy council houses" ??

She did.
well she did one good thing then!
Is it a good thing though? So the council have built lots of new houses for those who cannot afford to buy privately? Social housing availabilty has dramatically declined since Maggie approved this. Waiting lists are horrendous. Our homeless figures are sky high. I am all for the new legislation which will revoke the right to buy rule.
like i said...considering house prices these days....buying our council house was the only way of being able to own something and get onto the property ladder,avarage house prices in London are £300,000....we could have continued paying rent...but i certainly still don't want to be doing that when i retire.
No-one does and I understand where you are coming from. I am not totally against the Right to Buy system but I do think it has been abused with councils not ensuring that those who bought at 50% discount etc did not onward sell after the two year period but did so within months which in the late eighties gave us the gazumping era where the ex council house owners had money in their pockets and could push prices upwards, contributing ultimately to the now where you are faced with having to pay 300k plus for a house in your area.
My point is that social housing should have been replaced on at least a ratio of build one for every 10 sold. That has never happened, Maggie saw to that. I am all for home owning and I condemn no-one who has bought their homes from the council. But look at the state of those less for fortunate now or for that matter take a look at the plight of vital public workers in say London who are on Civvie salaries which are not fab and they are priced out of the market housing wise close to where they work and have to commute for hours each day just to to their job? Yes I take your point on the immigration system in place and it has exacerbated the problem but is not the reason.
the 50% discount doesn't mean anything these days...its capped at £16,000....so if your council values your house at say £150,000 your only get it for £134,000...still a hell of a lot of money!
immigration is a problem...even if the government built 1000 homes aweek for ten years...it still wouldn't be enough to sort out immigration alone.
Quote by Mr-Powers
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
Quote by Scandal
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
powers & Kiss you've missed a trick.
Laclau's Irony referred to Tebbits "on yer bike" quote
I did the Tebbit bike ride and ended up in the beautifull garden suburb of Kings Cross. There were no kings around, very few well paid jobs and definitely no social housing so five of us slept in a one bed flat for ten months.
My lasting memory is the be-jewelled landlord telling us to "fak oorf back to Jockland" rolleyes
One of Thatchers admirers no doubt!
Is ignorance a defence? lol
In edit: I'm just off to post in the impulsive behaviour thread.
I've always been in favour of the right to buy but where the Councils fell down is by not using the money they made on the sales to build more houses for rent.
I rent my house, I have a secured tenancy and don't have the right to buy. On my rather crap wages ( and even crapper 1% pay rise confused ) I can't afford to get onto the property ladder. The only way I could do it would be a lottery win or marry for money and there's more chance of me shagging the Pope!
The whole Right To Buy scheme was, and still is, a good idea for those people who couldn't afford private house prices but greedy local councils have proved once again, that the profits go into lining pockets and not rebuilding rental housing for the less wealthy.
Quote by Laclau
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
For various reasons (family!!) I was homeless for just over 2 weeks when living in Cambridge, I was 18.
A whole day spent in the council offices only to be told to go to the WYMCA (the stories I could tell you about that experience) and for anyone who thinks I should be grateful the 15 year old pregnant girl who was also at the offices got a 1 bedroom flat.
Quote by varca
As an aside... Maggie is actually a very lovely lady on a personal level (though how she sleeps at night I do not know!!), I have met her a good few times over the past 20 years as my mum and her friends from the convent in Finchley used to have afternoon tea with her when she was a mere MP at the HoC every Tuesday afternoon. Reunions happen quite a lot and Mrs T always attends and I go with my mum. Her politics hmmmmmm!!!

convent?
your mums a nun?
Quote by varca
As an aside... Maggie is actually a very lovely lady on a personal level (though how she sleeps at night I do not know!!), I have met her a good few times over the past 20 years as my mum and her friends from the convent in Finchley used to have afternoon tea with her when she was a mere MP at the HoC every Tuesday afternoon. Reunions happen quite a lot and Mrs T always attends and I go with my mum. Her politics hmmmmmm!!!

Name dropper :giggle:
Quote by Scandal
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others

What? Do they give each asylum seeker a couple of hundred houses each now then? confused
The immigration/asylum problem you keep banging on about (and lumping both together rolleyes) is a market forces issue, Maggie's dream!
You can't have all your cheap goods in the shops without people here and abroad prepared to work for wages you probably wouldn't work for.
What's the difference between me following Normans advice and Pole doing the same? Jack shit!
I wish I'd said that.
Quote by varca
As an aside... Maggie is actually a very lovely lady on a personal level (though how she sleeps at night I do not know!!), I have met her a good few times over the past 20 years as my mum and her friends from the convent in Finchley used to have afternoon tea with her when she was a mere MP at the HoC every Tuesday afternoon. Reunions happen quite a lot and Mrs T always attends and I go with my mum. Her politics hmmmmmm!!!

Name dropper :giggle:
Oh shoot that was never actually ever meant to be disclosed :eeek: Anyone reading this thread I am now hypnotising you into forgetting that a staunch socialist moi, would ever deign to sit and drink coffee with the enemy :giggle:
OK where's the hypnotising icon????
And Drew do I look like Julie Andrews? :giggle: rotflmao
no but i bet she wishes you did kiss
Quote by Mr-Powers
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
Quote by jaymar
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
British men are rapists too.
I thought this was a poll for voting the "iron lady of SH" biggrin
thankfully its not as it would have been a difficult choice rolleyes
Quote by Kiss
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
Same here, my grandparents were still renting their house well into the 80's and it was late 80's when they were able to get a mortgage to buy.
Quote by Kiss
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
Some British men are rapists too.
wink
Quote by Mr-Powers
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
Some British men are rapists too.
wink
Sorry! I apologise unreservedly, I of course meant some. redface
Quote by Kiss
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
British men are rapists too.
and? my point was in reply to Mr.P's comments on asylum seekers and my point is as above, we do as a society bend over backwards to help them, but they don't need to repay that generosity with local girls.
I'm sorry Kiss on the occasion I'll have to agree to disagree with you.. of course british men also - that isn't the issue here. I worked in a Court and I can assure you there is a higher % of asylum seekers committing indecent assaults and/or than there should be - this is nothing to do with race or class I might point out.
Quote by jaymar
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
British men are rapists too.
and? my point was in reply to Mr.P's comments on asylum seekers and my point is as above, we do as a society bend over backwards to help them, but they don't need to repay that generosity with local girls.
I'm sorry Kiss on the occasion I'll have to agree to disagree with you.. of course british men also - that isn't the issue here. I worked in a Court and I can assure you there is a higher % of asylum seekers committing indecent assaults and/or than there should be.
Hey I'm totally fine with agreeing to disagree - I don't want to have crossed words over it. kiss
My point is there are a lot of foreign people doing jobs that the great British public feel are below them. I just don't want all asylum seekers tarred with the same brush.
Quote by Scandal
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others

What? Do they give each asylum seeker a couple of hundred houses each now then? confused
No but a couple of hundred ayslum seekers take priorty over us when it comes to housing waiting lists!
as an example....say you were living in one room with a wife and two kids...and you were on the waiting list for a council property...now along comes a family of asylum seekers...wether it one or one hundred...they would have priorty other you and your family...wouldn't it piss you off..when it drops you back down the waiting list for another couple of years?
Quote by Kiss
Precisely! Public housing was meant for those who couldn't afford to buy. I do realise that these are a feckless lot who deserve no sympathy as they should get on their bikes and find proper, well-paying jobs, but the country would have trouble functioning without them.

:shock:
My grandparents were both in the armed forces during WWII and both worked full time after that, however they still couldn't afford to buy their small council house.
You might want to rethink your narrow minded attitude. confused
i wouldn't borrow kiss...these one's only come out of the woodwork when they can find a thread they can troll in!
unless your on at £75,000 a year...there isn't much you can get London...i don't earn that....are you saying i'm one of the fekless lot who should get on his bike and look for a well paid job?
Nope - I'm saying you deserve a decent place to live whoever you are. It's a pity Margaret Thatcher didn't think likewise.
even an asylum seeker...who jumps up the list,taking your place and hundreds of others when you've been waiting years and will never have a chance of ever actually getting anything.
and jump bail for an offence of (digressing I know but I've just read this in our local paper and I'm not a happy bunny)....sorry I'm all for helping people and we bend over backwards to do so with our Government, then you read articles of ! :shock:
British men are rapists too.
and? my point was in reply to Mr.P's comments on asylum seekers and my point is as above, we do as a society bend over backwards to help them, but they don't need to repay that generosity with local girls.
I'm sorry Kiss on the occasion I'll have to agree to disagree with you.. of course british men also - that isn't the issue here. I worked in a Court and I can assure you there is a higher % of asylum seekers committing indecent assaults and/or than there should be.
Hey I'm totally fine with agreeing to disagree - I don't want to have crossed words over it. kiss
My point is there are a lot of foreign people doing jobs that the great British public feel are below them. I just don't want all asylum seekers tarred with the same brush.
Of course, :kiss: me neither. I'm actually about to start a job helping such people out so I'm the last to judge and would never judge and they are most certainly not all the same, my point was I dislike it when people throw back help in the faces of those who have helped (and that goes for anyone anywhere).
:love: :love:
Quote by Scandal
No but a couple of hundred ayslum seekers take priorty over us when it comes to housing waiting lists!

Do you actually know the difference between an asylum seeker, a legal non EU immigrant, an illegal immigrant and a worker from a EU Member State?
Quote by Mr-Powers
along comes a family of asylum seekers...wether it one or one hundred...they would have priorty other you and your family...

Google the word ... hostel rolleyes
I do.
An asylum seeker is fleeing from persecution in their own country. My place of work helps out a few of them. Some of them are really easy to spot. Rather helpfully, their ears have been chopped off. They live in hostels run by charities mostly.
Illegal immigrants are in the UK illegally and can't therefore can't claim any benefits at all - saves 'us' a few quid I suppose.
Legal non EU immigrants go through a rigorous application procedure before they are allowed to enter the UK. one of the criteria for success is that they can support themselves on arrival.
Workers from the EU are here perfectly legally - to work funnily enough. that's the free market for you.
Quote by Scandal
No but a couple of hundred ayslum seekers take priorty over us when it comes to housing waiting lists!

Do you actually know the difference between an asylum seeker (is someone who allegedly seeks refuge in a foreign country because of war and violence, or out of fear of persecution) , a legal non EU immigrant (someone who has claimed citizenship in another country), an illegal immigrant(someone who enters a country legally on a visa but stays past their visa date and goes underground or someone who enters a country illegal and goes underground) and a worker from a EU Member State?(someone who can live and work in another EU country but cannot make any benefit claims for two years)
Quote by Mr-Powers
along comes a family of asylum seekers...wether it one or one hundred...they would have priorty other you and your family...

Google the word ... hostel (Film directed by Eli Roth in 2005) rolleyes
Interesting how this thread moves on to asylum seekers. We used to have a dig at other minority groups in the past in the 60's.......... housing shortages were there before the latest influx over the last 5 years.
Fact is house prices went up tremendously in the 80's, loads of repossessions and negative equity happened. In 20 years time we will see our kids in rented flats all over the country as they wont be able to buy anyway. That will become the norm again through private lettings rather than council
Times change and so do attitudes but I regret that the values of life have moved from one of communities to a disposable lifestyle. I know government policy is trying to redress this and get people back involved with the community and the sooner we recognise the importance of this again the better. I want to see kids out on the streets playing again, more youth clubs and family centred social areas. Doesnt matter if you own a house or not to make a community work together.
Quote by Sassy-Seren
I've always been in favour of the right to buy but where the Councils fell down is by not using the money they made on the sales to build more houses for rent.
I rent my house, I have a secured tenancy and don't have the right to buy. On my rather crap wages ( and even crapper 1% pay rise confused ) I can't afford to get onto the property ladder. The only way I could do it would be a lottery win or marry for money and there's more chance of me shagging the Pope!
The whole Right To Buy scheme was, and still is, a good idea for those people who couldn't afford private house prices but greedy local councils have proved once again, that the profits go into lining pockets and not rebuilding rental housing for the less wealthy.

I couldn't agree more with you :thumbup: We have a council house as we can't afford to buy (and yes we both work in fairly well paid jobs!).
We have right to buy and are torn between getting on the housing ladder finally, but then we're taking much needed social housing out of the loop, and our council isn't investing (or if it is then the size of the house is ridiculous!)
Catch 22.
Cx
Quote by Calista
I've always been in favour of the right to buy but where the Councils fell down is by not using the money they made on the sales to build more houses for rent.
I rent my house, I have a secured tenancy and don't have the right to buy. On my rather crap wages ( and even crapper 1% pay rise confused ) I can't afford to get onto the property ladder. The only way I could do it would be a lottery win or marry for money and there's more chance of me shagging the Pope!
The whole Right To Buy scheme was, and still is, a good idea for those people who couldn't afford private house prices but greedy local councils have proved once again, that the profits go into lining pockets and not rebuilding rental housing for the less wealthy.

I couldn't agree more with you :thumbup: We have a council house as we can't afford to buy (and yes we both work in fairly well paid jobs!).
We have right to buy and are torn between getting on the housing ladder finally, but then we're taking much needed social housing out of the loop, and our council isn't investing (or if it is then the size of the house is ridiculous!)
Catch 22.
Cx
but if you planned on living in your council house for the rest of your lives...do you really want to be paying full rent when your pensioners...so why not buy it?....does your council offer tenants a grant to move out so can buy on the open market?