To avoid any imminent brickbats, I shall repeat once more that I am fully aware that I am putting forward a very simplistic view of a complex problem, but I believe the principle holds nonetheless.
VENUS ….. Your analogy to electricity is very much more valid than Easy’s re Special Forces’ resistance to abuse, for they assuredly have no choice in their situation.
For all that Venus, would you (and others) accept that we do not live in isolation or in a vacuum? That being so, by merely mingling with others in society even in such mundane situations as in the supermarket, the victim will be made aware (conscious), but quite possibly choose to ignore, that her (allow me to be sexist please!) situation is not the acceptable norm.
Therefore, unlike electricity, the situation can be “seen†and so, at least theoretically, a choice can be made …… However, as I stated a little earlier, it may take a long time or an outside catalyst or a number of other factors before it actually dawns on the victim that she has such a choice …… Whether the victim then refuses to acknowledge even to herself that she has the choice is another matter.
I know that is harshly or even unfairly put, for it presupposes to some extent that even at that stage, the victim has sufficient mental and emotional strength to break the shackles.
But to move on …. see next post
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Why do women allow themselves to be abused?
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A much more pernicious situation may arise where there is only one breadwinner in the family ….. yes, I’ll be sexist and decide that is the man!
In this scenario, particularly where the couple have decided to live together (marry) at a fairly young age, the girl will already be potentially vulnerable, and not really of her own making.
It is now the man who holds the aces by way of the economic pursestrings (Misschief’s post on page 3 highlights this). There is a chance that if he is allowed to, he will slowly and maybe not entirely intentionally start to abuse this position..
To nip this potentially explosive problem in the bud, requires a conscious decision from the man and/or for the girl to stand up very early on. This does not or should not mean physical or verbal violent confrontation, but rather the girl making her fears and views known to her partner ….. and both staying aware thereafter.
In this scenario, particularly where the couple have decided to live together (marry) at a fairly young age, the girl will already be potentially vulnerable, and not really of her own making.
It is now the man who holds the aces by way of the economic pursestrings (Misschief’s post on page 3 highlights this). There is a chance that if he is allowed to, he will slowly and maybe not entirely intentionally start to abuse this position..
To nip this potentially explosive problem in the bud, requires a conscious decision from the man and/or for the girl to stand up very early on. This does not or should not mean physical or verbal violent confrontation, but rather the girl making her fears and views known to her partner ….. and both staying aware thereafter.
Quote by Silk and Big G
... any general discussion is almost inevitably bound to be a fruitless round of collective agreement.
Peace x
ok, maybe fruitless to some, but i think it's been therapeutic to many of us who have posted and also helpful to some who have pm'd...it is the first time that some have seen evidence that they are or were not on their own. it has given courage to those to take their lives forward, either to a more appropriate venue ie: counselling, self help groups etc or to have shared it with others, thereby also a form of healing. the pm's have encouraged people to seek what's right for them, and has opened another few points, which arent suitable for general discussion. maybe it's got too big for this area, but its been an invaluable starting point for many.
Quote by crosspatch
To avoid any imminent brickbats, I shall repeat once more that I am fully aware that I am putting forward a very simplistic view of a complex problem, but I believe the principle holds nonetheless.
VENUS ….. Your analogy to electricity is very much more valid than Easy’s re Special Forces’ resistance to abuse, for they assuredly have no choice in their situation.
For all that Venus, would you (and others) accept that we do not live in isolation or in a vacuum? That being so, by merely mingling with others in society even in such mundane situations as in the supermarket, the victim will be made aware (conscious), but quite possibly choose to ignore, that her (allow me to be sexist please!) situation is not the acceptable norm.
Therefore, unlike electricity, the situation can be “seen†and so, at least theoretically, a choice can be made …… However, as I stated a little earlier, it may take a long time or an outside catalyst or a number of other factors before it actually dawns on the victim that she has such a choice …… Whether the victim then refuses to acknowledge even to herself that she has the choice is another matter.
I know that is harshly or even unfairly put, for it presupposes to some extent that even at that stage, the victim has sufficient mental and emotional strength to break the shackles.
But to move on …. see next post
Well, I suppose it would all depend on your definition of isolation. Easy asked for examples and they were provided. Granted these people may have been able to shop, bank, take the kids to school etc, but the human contact often needed to break the pattern of abuse is all too often denied. Shopping will not provide this. In fact, next time you are in a Supermarket, ask yourself how many of the shoppers there are currently living in an abusive situation themselves. There`s a good chance there will be at least one, and they will seemingly be `happy`. Seeing normality prooves nothing to the victim, especially when they themselves are wearing the `mask`. If anything, the juxtapostion enforces the idea that thier situation is hopeless.
I`m not saying that all victims can not recognise that thier situation is not normal, they merely do not recognise the strength within themselves to break this. Given the the fact that an abuser can often twist a persons mind where they feel they are to blame somewhat, how would they?
All in all, I`d say that there is evidence that some do have sufficiant mental and emotional strength and realisation to break the shackles. They do not choose to accept the abuse. It make take weeks, months or years, but they don`t choose to live with it, they choose to escape. Those who do not have access to this, do not have this choice available to them, and they are the ones who become another statistic.
Venusxxx
Quote by mellow
... any general discussion is almost inevitably bound to be a fruitless round of collective agreement.
Peace x
ok, maybe fruitless to some, but i think it's been therapeutic to many of us who have posted and also helpful to some who have pm'd...it is the first time that some have seen evidence that they are or were not on their own. it has given courage to those to take their lives forward, either to a more appropriate venue ie: counselling, self help groups etc or to have shared it with others, thereby also a form of healing. the pm's have encouraged people to seek what's right for them, and has opened another few points, which arent suitable for general discussion. maybe it's got too big for this area, but its been an invaluable starting point for many.
Then that`s terrific
Venusxxx
Sex God
Quote by VenusnMars
......For all that Venus, would you (and others) accept that we do not live in isolation or in a vacuum? That being so, by merely mingling with others in society even in such mundane situations as in the supermarket, the victim will be made aware (conscious), but quite possibly choose to ignore, that her (allow me to be sexist please!) situation is not the acceptable norm.
Therefore, unlike electricity, the situation can be “seen†and so, at least theoretically, a choice can be made …… However, as I stated a little earlier, it may take a long time or an outside catalyst or a number of other factors before it actually dawns on the victim that she has such a choice …… Whether the victim then refuses to acknowledge even to herself that she has the choice is another matter.
....Well, I suppose it would all depend on your definition of isolation. ......
Venusxxx
I'd go further than that. I can imagine people who are in someone else's grip, say at home, but who are in regular contact with other people, possibly in another environment, like work and who are entirely isolated by the abuser's behaviour. In fact it can be worse in that sort of situation because the abused is even denied talking to their workmates about their home situation. I just don't think you can generalise in that way Crosspatch.
Interesting thread.
I`m not saying that all victims can not recognise that thier situation is not normal, they merely do not recognise the strength within themselves to break this.
With that, Venus, I thoroughly agree, and have done throughout. However, I would disagree with another part of your post, for I am sure there are least some or even many who will decide for whatever reason, that they have more to lose by leaving the relationship than staying. The rest of us may think that is nuts, but if it has been a conscious decision (choice!) then no more to add.
Tune Essence .... Of course this thread (or my bits) are full of generalisations, but that cannot be helped.
I would however take some issue with you about co-workers not being aware of a victim's plight, for we had just such a situation a couple of years back in our own small company. I can't remember exactly how the support was forthcoming, but it certainly was. I am pleased to say that eventually the victim did indeed break free, and now seems (I still speak to her from time to time in the town) much healthier and happier for it, so I assume she has not fallen back into the same or similar trap.
Nevertheless, at the end of the day, it is still the victim who has to admit and deal with the problem.
Quote by westerross
I'd go further than that. I can imagine people who are in someone else's grip, say at home, but who are in regular contact with other people, possibly in another environment, like work and who are entirely isolated by the abuser's behaviour. In fact it can be worse in that sort of situation because the abused is even denied talking to their workmates about their home situation. I just don't think you can generalise in that way Crosspatch.
Interesting thread.
I agree with that, I grew up seeing my mother get battered for about 5 or six years although my mother wasnt in the position where she was that isolated so its not like she wouldnt have had support from anyone around her althouogh I know that ina way she felt helpless and that she certainly didnt go into the relationship knowing that this would be the way things would end up.
Its got a lot to do with the victims self confidence as well as support from others around to leave an abusive relationship I think some people get to point where they snap and one day realise its time to bite the bullet and do everything in their power to get out.
Ive known of victims namely one who didnt get out in time although the way she was abused in her relationship was far worse than my mothers experience in the terms of harshness"
I also had a bad relationship myself but that didnt last long and I gave as good as I got, I think after seeing what my mother went through I knew I wasnt going to take shit of off any other man/woman in any relationship.
I think there are too many different degrees/types of physical abuse to put it into any set of rules to say this is what should or shouldnt be done or how people should gather the strength to get out because at the end of the day if the person has enough support to get out then they will but only when they want to!!
People stay in abusive relationships for all sorts of different reasons so its hard to say why for any nu,ber of people although there are always similar reasons!
All I can say is its a strange fucked up world!!?
Quote by crosspatch
Nevertheless, at the end of the day, it is still the victim who has to admit and deal with the problem.
Not quite. It`s the victim who has admit and remove themselves from the problem. It`s the abuser who should be dealing with it.
You speak of choices. The victim who chooses to stay because he or she feels that is the best solution at the time. There are so many `rationales` for this. The mother who feels that this `choice` is redundant, because her first obligation is to her children (not splitting up the home), is just one. For them, until a better awareness is reached, the decision to stay is not a choice, for them, it`s a cross they feel they have to bear, and that remains true for whatever `rationale`. Women who find themselves in this situation should not be blamed for not seeing the way out, they are dealing with it in the best way they currently know how. In many cases they are not intending to live with the abuse, believing that what they can offer within the relationship may fix it, this may be futile, but on thier part it is a not an indication that they are choosing to live with it. Some victims may kid themselves, but this is often done unconciously, `choice` implies a conscious decision to gloss over the facts.
Once a realistic way out is recognised (choice), I believe all survivors will try to head for it.
Instead of asking `why do women (or men) choose to stay with abusive partners`, we should be asking `Why do people choose to abuse`, for it is the latter who need to take the responsibility.
Venusxxx
Sex God
<<<< hi-jack >>>>
Venus, I'm in love with your mind!
<<<<< hijack end >>>>>
Sorry Crosspatch
Venus, I'm in love with your mind!
<<<<< hijack end >>>>>
Sorry Crosspatch
Sex God
Quote:
I`m not saying that all victims can not recognise that thier situation is not normal, they merely do not recognise the strength within themselves to break this.
With that, Venus, I thoroughly agree, and have done throughout. However, I would disagree with another part of your post, for I am sure there are least some or even many who will decide for whatever reason, that they have more to lose by leaving the relationship than staying. The rest of us may think that is nuts, but if it has been a conscious decision (choice!) then no more to add.
then crosspatch you have simply not understood everyone's response on this thread! the "choice" you refer to is simply not there all too often? and the "slight" change in attitude you refer to is a fucking massive shift! it is not to be taken, or dismissed, lightly? my sister goes from one abusive fucker to another. that's what i meant about it being close to home. my insight into my own abusive realtionship is as nothing to what i see her do. and yes it's fucking frustrating, and i can't help her see it? have you any idea how that feels for her? and me? i have some idea of it!
where do you go? back to mum's? the same mum who's been telling you to get out for about as long as the relationships existed, and you don't want to now look a complete failure to? a B&B? oh yes we'd all love that eh? back on the dole? cos maybe you have no idea how to budget and finance your life on £50 to £100 a week? especially with 2 or 3 kids? maybe you've never had money cos your partner controls you that way too. it's a useful stick to beat you with! not gonna work is it? and after all most of us would like to see the kids have a father and mother maybe? despite what that does to us, people sacrifice themselves for their kids all the time i think? i may be wrong? maybe we could get a council flat after a good few months, once we take the "choice" open to us, and move onto an estate rife with smack and joyriders and burglars and other abusers? possibly we wouldn't want to subject ourselves and our kids to that kind of environment?
i'm sorry crosspatch but i'm a touch sensitive about some of your comments, cos they are all too close to home!
and finally, no it is *NOT* for the victim to acknowledge it. it is for the *ABUSER* to seek help for the reasons why s/he selects and manipulates and *CHOOSES* to use violence to control!
neil x x x ;)
Sex God
Neil,
Couldn't agree more!
Couldn't agree more!
In many cases they are not intending to live with the abuse, believing that what they can offer within the relationship may fix it, this may be futile, but on thier part it is a not an indication that they are choosing to live with it. Some victims may kid themselves, but this is often done unconciously, `choice` implies a conscious decision to gloss over the facts.
Once a realistic way out is recognised (choice), I believe all survivors will try to head for it.
Instead of asking `why do women (or men) choose to stay with abusive partners`, we should be asking `Why do people choose to abuse`, for it is the latter who need to take the responsibility.
Venusxxx
We really need an applause icon here.
Sounds to me like some people need to live it to truly understand it.
First comment - WOW! What a fantastic thread and well done for raising it Crosspatch. The level of contribution to it has been wonderful and warmed the cockles of my cold SH heart!
Second comment - I have never been subjected to abuse of any sort - emotional, physical, sexual mental or neglect. However I work in a large inner city comprehensive school with children, many of whom are being subjected to all or some of these on a continual basis. Some suffer in silence because they know no better and don't realise it's wrong, some don't tell adults because they are worried that the abuser (usually a family member) will be in trouble and others talk about it freely and matter of factly. Not sure which is the worst option there. I once had a really lovely 6th form boy crying in my room because of the physical abuse suffered at the hands of his mother.
I had a neighbour who was beaten regularly by her partner, I could hear her being bounced off the walls of the house and screaming. Finally I couldn't bear it any more and took to ringing the police every single time. She began by coming to my door and shouting at me for interfering, telling me I was making it worse and to keep out of it. I countered by saying the behaviour was interfering with MY life and even if she could live with it I certainly couldn't and wasn't prepared to. The constant intervention of the police eventually forced this man out of the house. I don't know if my reaction was correct or not - it was just effective for me.
Behaviour breeds behaviour. What we learn to live with is how we teach our children to live.
Second comment - I have never been subjected to abuse of any sort - emotional, physical, sexual mental or neglect. However I work in a large inner city comprehensive school with children, many of whom are being subjected to all or some of these on a continual basis. Some suffer in silence because they know no better and don't realise it's wrong, some don't tell adults because they are worried that the abuser (usually a family member) will be in trouble and others talk about it freely and matter of factly. Not sure which is the worst option there. I once had a really lovely 6th form boy crying in my room because of the physical abuse suffered at the hands of his mother.
I had a neighbour who was beaten regularly by her partner, I could hear her being bounced off the walls of the house and screaming. Finally I couldn't bear it any more and took to ringing the police every single time. She began by coming to my door and shouting at me for interfering, telling me I was making it worse and to keep out of it. I countered by saying the behaviour was interfering with MY life and even if she could live with it I certainly couldn't and wasn't prepared to. The constant intervention of the police eventually forced this man out of the house. I don't know if my reaction was correct or not - it was just effective for me.
Behaviour breeds behaviour. What we learn to live with is how we teach our children to live.
Quote by VenusnMars
Instead of asking `why do women (or men) choose to stay with abusive partners`, we should be asking `Why do people choose to abuse`, for it is the latter who need to take the responsibility.
Venusxxx
Venus..... While your question is perfectly valid, it is entirely different from the one posed.
I shall dwell on the other issues you and others have raised and will respond probably tomorrow.
Quote by crosspatch
Venus..... While your question is perfectly valid, it is entirely different from the one posed.
I know
Neil, you say your sister runs from one abusive relationship to another? Thank god she has at least found to strength to get out on occassion. I can empathise with your frustration when she finds herself repeating the same pattern ((((Neil)))). Has she tried counselling to help her to recognise and defeat this pattern of behaviour? She really needs to do this, and will need all the support in the world to help her to complete that journey before she embarks on another relationship, hard to do if her faith in her own ability is such she can`t envision a life independent of a controlling partner. She needs to recognise, love, and develop her own strengths first.
Venusxxx
Sex God
venus
unfortunately, my sister is only now free of her last abuser, because he ended up in jail for the violence he dished out elsewhere. the violence he dished out to her, both emotionally and physically, goes unaddressed! and because we we're brought up in the same environment, i understand her issues, and can't condemn her for the *choices* she makes! and therein lies my anger with crosspatch and his flippant insistance that *choices* are there to be made! she's 33. i'm 35. we are both quite intelligent adults! but still she seeks partners similiar to the one who bit a good mouthful out of her thigh, leaving her with permanent nerve damnage, and that had nurses crying while they tended the wound! it had me knocking the fuck out of the bloke who did that to her. and you know what? i was the bad guy, and her sympathy lay with him! the abused comforting the abuser, and making allowances that it was most likely her fault.
i couldn't be violent if i tried, but i personally wanted to kill him! she bins off the nice guys fairly quickly, cos she doesn't deserve them, and would rather have guys who run round with shotguns! what more do you need. yes crosspatch they find themselves in relationships that see them abused sometimes, because they have grown up to believe that a *strong* man will protect them, possibly from the kind of abuse they suffered as a child, and in every relationship since, and they'll make everything ok! having grown up in the same environment, that i too felt like being protected from at times by someone stronger than me, i understand it a little, and can't condemn her? do not condemn what you clearly do not understand!
what more needs to be said on this thread crosspatch, because if you can't see the bigger picture from the responses on this thread, then i have to wonder if you are being deliberately provocative! sorry, but i think you have many clear answers to your question?
neil
unfortunately, my sister is only now free of her last abuser, because he ended up in jail for the violence he dished out elsewhere. the violence he dished out to her, both emotionally and physically, goes unaddressed! and because we we're brought up in the same environment, i understand her issues, and can't condemn her for the *choices* she makes! and therein lies my anger with crosspatch and his flippant insistance that *choices* are there to be made! she's 33. i'm 35. we are both quite intelligent adults! but still she seeks partners similiar to the one who bit a good mouthful out of her thigh, leaving her with permanent nerve damnage, and that had nurses crying while they tended the wound! it had me knocking the fuck out of the bloke who did that to her. and you know what? i was the bad guy, and her sympathy lay with him! the abused comforting the abuser, and making allowances that it was most likely her fault.
i couldn't be violent if i tried, but i personally wanted to kill him! she bins off the nice guys fairly quickly, cos she doesn't deserve them, and would rather have guys who run round with shotguns! what more do you need. yes crosspatch they find themselves in relationships that see them abused sometimes, because they have grown up to believe that a *strong* man will protect them, possibly from the kind of abuse they suffered as a child, and in every relationship since, and they'll make everything ok! having grown up in the same environment, that i too felt like being protected from at times by someone stronger than me, i understand it a little, and can't condemn her? do not condemn what you clearly do not understand!
what more needs to be said on this thread crosspatch, because if you can't see the bigger picture from the responses on this thread, then i have to wonder if you are being deliberately provocative! sorry, but i think you have many clear answers to your question?
neil
Quote by neilinleeds
venus
unfortunately, my sister is only now free of her last abuser, because he ended up in jail for the violence he dished out elsewhere. the violence he dished out to her, both emotionally and physically, goes unaddressed! and because we we're brought up in the same environment, i understand her issues, and can't condemn her for the *choices* she makes! and therein lies my anger with crosspatch and his flippant insistance that *choices* are there to be made! she's 33. i'm 35. we are both quite intelligent adults! but still she seeks partners similiar to the one who bit a good mouthful out of her thigh, leaving her with permanent nerve damnage, and that had nurses crying while they tended the wound! it had me knocking the fuck out of the bloke who did that to her. and you know what? i was the bad guy, and her sympathy lay with him! the abused comforting the abuser, and making allowances that it was most likely her fault.
i couldn't be violent if i tried, but i personally wanted to kill him! she bins off the nice guys fairly quickly, cos she doesn't deserve them, and would rather have guys who run round with shotguns! what more do you need. yes crosspatch they find themselves in relationships that see them abused sometimes, because they have grown up to believe that a *strong* man will protect them, and make everything ok! having grown up in the same environment, that i too felt like being protected from at times by someone stronger than me, i understand it a little, and can't condemn her? do not condemn what you clearly do not understand!
what more needs to be said on this thread crosspatch, because if you can't see the bigger picture from the responses on this thread, then i have to wonder if you are being deliberately provocative! sorry, but i think you have many clear answers to your question?
neil
Looking at the perspective of friends and families of abusers you can see how hard it is too cope for them too, when my mother was in this position I was very young and seen this growing up and couldnt do much about it but then I think no matter what age you are theres not much you can do to make the other person get out!
Sex God
Quote by crosspatch
Instead of asking `why do women (or men) choose to stay with abusive partners`, we should be asking `Why do people choose to abuse`, for it is the latter who need to take the responsibility.
Venusxxx
Venus..... While your question is perfectly valid, it is entirely different from the one posed.
Not it is not. The two are mutually exclusive. why don't you listen to what Neil is saying. You have no more of my time!!
" for better or for worse, in sickness and in health..." what when the abusive partner begins these hateful things after suffering a car accident, becoming depressed and consequently having mental health issues?? you feel that you can't just walk out...
the feelings of leaving someone who's ill are hard to bear initially.
just a point to consider.
the whole thread is worthwhile, but also now draining. take care everyone. hugs. xxx
the feelings of leaving someone who's ill are hard to bear initially.
just a point to consider.
the whole thread is worthwhile, but also now draining. take care everyone. hugs. xxx
Crosspatch, I think perhaps our perceptions of what defines choice differ. If this is the case, then I think we will have to agree to disagree, for I believe most of what I (and others) have already posted already confronts your question.
That said, I have to say that I, for one, prefer my definition, and think it`s a valuable perception for those who have been in abusive relationships to consider taking on. Recovering survivors already have a great deal of soulsearching to do, and thier self-esteem has in many cases taken a severe battering. If they are not to repeat the same pattern, or at least are to make better progress undoing the damage these relationships have left them with, they need to be able to rid themselves from any blame for the situation they found themselves in. Recognise that they did not help thier situation given the awareness they had at the time, yes, but not feel `responsible` for not having the correct perception of the choices `available` to them, if, in fact, they ever were (as Neil points out). That is only likely to damage any progress they have made in thier recovery. Guilt is not a valuable lesson to take away from such a situation, recognition for thier strength to eventually move on is.
Reading theories from others who feel they had access to `conscious` choices could easily enforce this self-doubt. I`m sure some of the reactions you have encountered here are from people who have managed to free themselves of this, and who know how difficult this can be, without the addition of someone else echoing the sentiment of `why didn`t I leave before, or prevent it from happening in the first place?!` Many people who have lived the reality will hate to think this message is being reinforced for someone else who needs to recover and may be reading that.
Although it may seem that I am accusing you of kicking a person when they are down, I feel for the most part that this thread has offered more positives than negatives, and I commend you for starting it. I also commend you for trying to reach a better understanding of what to many others seems to be a incomprehensible decision on the part of some victims.
I hope this thread has provided you with a better understanding, because that is valuable also.
Venusxxx
That said, I have to say that I, for one, prefer my definition, and think it`s a valuable perception for those who have been in abusive relationships to consider taking on. Recovering survivors already have a great deal of soulsearching to do, and thier self-esteem has in many cases taken a severe battering. If they are not to repeat the same pattern, or at least are to make better progress undoing the damage these relationships have left them with, they need to be able to rid themselves from any blame for the situation they found themselves in. Recognise that they did not help thier situation given the awareness they had at the time, yes, but not feel `responsible` for not having the correct perception of the choices `available` to them, if, in fact, they ever were (as Neil points out). That is only likely to damage any progress they have made in thier recovery. Guilt is not a valuable lesson to take away from such a situation, recognition for thier strength to eventually move on is.
Reading theories from others who feel they had access to `conscious` choices could easily enforce this self-doubt. I`m sure some of the reactions you have encountered here are from people who have managed to free themselves of this, and who know how difficult this can be, without the addition of someone else echoing the sentiment of `why didn`t I leave before, or prevent it from happening in the first place?!` Many people who have lived the reality will hate to think this message is being reinforced for someone else who needs to recover and may be reading that.
Although it may seem that I am accusing you of kicking a person when they are down, I feel for the most part that this thread has offered more positives than negatives, and I commend you for starting it. I also commend you for trying to reach a better understanding of what to many others seems to be a incomprehensible decision on the part of some victims.
I hope this thread has provided you with a better understanding, because that is valuable also.
Venusxxx
I started this thread because it is a subject about which I feel pretty strongly. There are also several tangental issues, such as the (non)continuance of violence by the children of violent relationships which would probably make as thought-provoking threads as this one ..... but at another time.
A few contributors have accused me of arrogance or similar. While this is singularly unjustified, I am happy to accept these slings and arrows, for that is one of the perils of sponsoring debates on such contentious issues as this one.
A few contributors have accused me of arrogance or similar. While this is singularly unjustified, I am happy to accept these slings and arrows, for that is one of the perils of sponsoring debates on such contentious issues as this one.
Sex God
Quote by crosspatch
A few contributors have accused me of arrogance or similar. While this is singularly unjustified, I am happy to accept these slings and arrows, for that is one of the perils of sponsoring debates on such contentious issues as this one.
TBH in my personal opinion from reading all of this thread, I don't think it's anything to do with the subject, but I'll leave it there. :gagged:
As far as I can see most of the posters have covered most angles of the subject, so what's the question you want answered?
And just to clarify....
Quote by crosspatch
VENUS ….. Your analogy to electricity is very much more valid than Easy’s re Special Forces’ resistance to abuse, for they assuredly have no choice in their situation.
It wasn't an analogy, it was a comparison. The point I was trying to make was that given both physical and/or mental abuse, even soldiers that are prepared for this kind of situation (ie facing abuse) are very much aware that there is a finite point where their willpower will be broken and they will start to curtail to the demands of their abusers. How the person, be they a partner or a soldier, came into this situation is irrelivant.
It was not in any way, shape, or form meant to say that domestic abuse and a soldiers capture are the same situation. Clearly they are not. What it was trying to say was that physical and mental abuse will eventually break someone's will.
