watchers have you ever walked away or not joined in if asked............... because you where not interested
And why?
Nosey cow Debbiewebs! xxxxxxxxxxxx
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Watchers!!......... have you ever walked away
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Sex God
Yeah they do Debs . We have had it happen , and always think its rude and insensitive really . Some just dont want to be involved unless there is contact , some think they see something better going on , and some just cant get it up . Either way we always say once you have begun to watch you should try and stay if only to not insult the lady involved .
Quote by Silk and Big G
Yeah they do Debs . We have had it happen , and always think its rude and insensitive really . Some just dont want to be involved unless there is contact , some think they see something better going on , and some just cant get it up . Either way we always say once you have begun to watch you should try and stay if only to not insult the lady involved .
to bloody right
could make me parinod that..and start sniffing me self!
Quote by Debbiewebs
watchers have you ever walked away or not joined in if asked............... because you where not interested
And why?
Nosey cow Debbiewebs! xxxxxxxxxxxx
Yes very often. Usually because the woman was on the big side. We are very particular probably because we have seen so much;-)
old couple
I have walked away from watching on the odd occassion. Usually because the pushy types are trying to takeover, and join in when the couple plainly do not want it. Had it happen the other week , a couple felt too crowded ,stopped and left due to the pressure.
So I decide that discretion is the better part of valour & hopefully find a quieter spot with another couple,if I can find them, who want to be watched or whatever they want to happen.
So I decide that discretion is the better part of valour & hopefully find a quieter spot with another couple,if I can find them, who want to be watched or whatever they want to happen.
All the time love...many reasons.
In one recent case, it was getting too dirty...the girl was covered in cum and had had so many guys shag her (without rubbers) that it was getting to be a case of manners versus nausea...and there were still people waiting to get "in"........................
But in most cases it was just too crowded, and in serious risk of getting out of control...with guys shoving others out of the way to get there.
If the couple are just showing and not playing then it is different, but you'll always get the ones who want a feel and get mouthy if the girl doesn't want to play....
It all used to be so polite in the past !
In one recent case, it was getting too dirty...the girl was covered in cum and had had so many guys shag her (without rubbers) that it was getting to be a case of manners versus nausea...and there were still people waiting to get "in"........................
But in most cases it was just too crowded, and in serious risk of getting out of control...with guys shoving others out of the way to get there.
If the couple are just showing and not playing then it is different, but you'll always get the ones who want a feel and get mouthy if the girl doesn't want to play....
It all used to be so polite in the past !
Sex God
Yup, I'll think nothing of walking away - sorry to who that offends 
I'm talking about watching in clubs now, rather than dogging, but watching is watching I guess, and it's all the same really.
As JTS says, many reasons. Sometimes the action is just too slow (now that DOES sound bad, I know
), sometimes there's too many people there to see much, sometimes I walk away cos I feel sorry for the woman who is obviously too polite to tell some pillock to get off her, or when the pillocks make right asses of themselves and it is no longer horny, just laughable.... like last night when some pillock didn't even notice that the woman's partner had given him a condom, then they spent ages looking for it on the floor :doh: ..... no offense to the woman at all, it was going well til that point. And then there's the odd case where the action is just downright distasteful (well, not to my taste anyway - see JTSs example above).
I'm talking about watching in clubs now, rather than dogging, but watching is watching I guess, and it's all the same really.
As JTS says, many reasons. Sometimes the action is just too slow (now that DOES sound bad, I know
), sometimes there's too many people there to see much, sometimes I walk away cos I feel sorry for the woman who is obviously too polite to tell some pillock to get off her, or when the pillocks make right asses of themselves and it is no longer horny, just laughable.... like last night when some pillock didn't even notice that the woman's partner had given him a condom, then they spent ages looking for it on the floor :doh: ..... no offense to the woman at all, it was going well til that point. And then there's the odd case where the action is just downright distasteful (well, not to my taste anyway - see JTSs example above). the picture jts paints of the dogging frenzy kinda reminds us of one of our early outings. the regulars didn't know our agenda in those days, so for a time things were quite crazy..it was the night we met "truckstop", one of the nicest, most inoffensive blokes you'd ever set eyes on..we started to "show", and all hell broke loose..one guy put a spotlight on us, and two fellas climbed on the bonnet, (no, i'm not kidding) 
some of the regulars had been caught on the hop, and were at the far end of the carpark, but on seeing the ever swelling mob, came thundering over.."truckstop" was ambling over for a peek too, and made the error of getting to our vehicle before the salivating shafters..he later told us he was flung to one side, falling in the process, then actually trampled on by the guys fighting to get to mrs dirty's door...now, in potentially similar circumstances, he'll always walk away, rather than be associated with such behaviour, or indeed, physically harmed..
then there is the "not wishing to play" aspect, where guys, initially drawn to what looks like some action, will become increasingly nervous at the realisation that men are being emptied and discarded as quickly as dumpy bottles of cheap french lager..wanting to watch, but not particularly keen to join the spunk bath, they might sneak away as the glare of attention increasingly falls upon them.
then, of course, as silk and g pointed out, and frequently happens to us, the guys, realising they ain't gonna get shagged or gobbled, will walk..through a slightly ajar window, we'll often hear such people enquiring of the other doggers, as to our level of involvement..when the answer isn't one they wish to hear, most will leave without fuss. the few that walk away, muttering "fucking waste of time", or "just prickteasing then"? really get my goat, but then, at our site, we're the exeption rather than the rule, and some of the guys there, looking as if someone has nicked the bolts out of their necks, are easilly confused :lol:
some of the regulars had been caught on the hop, and were at the far end of the carpark, but on seeing the ever swelling mob, came thundering over.."truckstop" was ambling over for a peek too, and made the error of getting to our vehicle before the salivating shafters..he later told us he was flung to one side, falling in the process, then actually trampled on by the guys fighting to get to mrs dirty's door...now, in potentially similar circumstances, he'll always walk away, rather than be associated with such behaviour, or indeed, physically harmed..then there is the "not wishing to play" aspect, where guys, initially drawn to what looks like some action, will become increasingly nervous at the realisation that men are being emptied and discarded as quickly as dumpy bottles of cheap french lager..wanting to watch, but not particularly keen to join the spunk bath, they might sneak away as the glare of attention increasingly falls upon them.
then, of course, as silk and g pointed out, and frequently happens to us, the guys, realising they ain't gonna get shagged or gobbled, will walk..through a slightly ajar window, we'll often hear such people enquiring of the other doggers, as to our level of involvement..when the answer isn't one they wish to hear, most will leave without fuss. the few that walk away, muttering "fucking waste of time", or "just prickteasing then"? really get my goat, but then, at our site, we're the exeption rather than the rule, and some of the guys there, looking as if someone has nicked the bolts out of their necks, are easilly confused :lol:
Orgasminator
In this day and age HIV is being spread more by heterosexuals than gays and would you really want to go in a hole without protection after some one with HIV may have shot their load in there?
Bare backing may sound fun but it is also very dangerous
Bare backing may sound fun but it is also very dangerous
Quote by bluexxx
sometimes there's too many people there to see much,
I've left sites for this reason, whilst dogging is a spectator event I don't much enjoy being in a grandstand (selfish aren't I?
) and it's not fun jostling when you're 5'5" and female! Quote by dirtydoggers
then, of course, as silk and g pointed out, and frequently happens to us, the guys, realising they ain't gonna get shagged or gobbled, will walk..through a slightly ajar window, we'll often hear such people enquiring of the other doggers, as to our level of involvement..when the answer isn't one they wish to hear, most will leave without fuss. the few that walk away, muttering "fucking waste of time", or "just prickteasing then"?
Despite being a visitor here for a year now I don't understand those timewasting comments and still get the urge to post on the "wanna shag" threads to point out that an invite to participate is a bonus, not an expectation. Personally, I wouldn't join in unless it was arranged or I knew the couple and it's need to be pretty quiet anyway......but that's why I'm a voyeur and not an exhibitionist :lol:
I don't know what else would make me walk away, other than people using drugs in front of me as that wouldn't interest me!
first of all i want to thank you all in your comments its has been a eye opener!
I as yet not had the prob of peeps walking that perhaps i go in the day time and not that many around!
And to be frank i think i will stick to day time fun!
If.......... and when it happens that peeps walk away........... i will pack it in and move on!.as i could be very hurt from it ...........as i do at times have a inferiority prob
But then saying that i dont have fun in the car only out side............. bloody hell how the fook do you shag in a car?............I am not intereasted in watching my self ...........been there done that find it boring!.sorry i dont mean to offend anyone with that comment!....at the end of the day it is what every floats ya boat
ops: forgot to say Yes i would like to watch 2 or more men shaging!
me and my big bloody mouth running away with me again :oops: .. :doh:
Heres hoping you can undersatnd what the bloody hell i am on i am not to good on me communcations skills on here
:oops: Debsxxxxxxxxxx
I as yet not had the prob of peeps walking that perhaps i go in the day time and not that many around!
And to be frank i think i will stick to day time fun!
If.......... and when it happens that peeps walk away........... i will pack it in and move on!.as i could be very hurt from it ...........as i do at times have a inferiority prob
But then saying that i dont have fun in the car only out side............. bloody hell how the fook do you shag in a car?............I am not intereasted in watching my self ...........been there done that find it boring!.sorry i dont mean to offend anyone with that comment!....at the end of the day it is what every floats ya boat
ops: forgot to say Yes i would like to watch 2 or more men shaging!me and my big bloody mouth running away with me again :oops: .. :doh:
Heres hoping you can undersatnd what the bloody hell i am on i am not to good on me communcations skills on here
:oops: Debsxxxxxxxxxx
Sex God
Well yeah I cant disagree with many of the sentiments here . Although many of the more extreme suggestions are rarer occurances than doggers would wish .
As most here know we enjoy the 'showing ' aspect of dogging and were we the sort that desired extreme participation were not at all sure a carpark is a suitable venue . Blues comparison to a club isnt really like for like as the situation and atmosphere are completely different .
The suggestion that you might walk away if the lady involved was ' a bit big ' or to put it more politely not your type is fair enough if the initial approach is a quick look in the window and then walk stright away , it kinda doesnt rub well though if you watch for ten minutes and THEN wander off mid show .
I suppose the whole difficulty arises because of the whole confusion about dogging and what to expect . Whereas dogging was once predominatly watching with some encounters escalating to some participation (often very mild) now what is really happening is swingers just meeting up in carparks . The expectations are much much higher and what was once the preserve of mostly voyeurs and exhibitionists has now almost made those individuals into outsiders .
I dont criticise people for doing what they want to , its all cool as long as everyone agrees , but for those that complain about the attitudes of what they call 'doggers' they should perhaps remember that most of the men they encounter now days at the popular sites are just chancers and not voyeurs at all .
I still say that walking away after watching part of a show is rude really and insensitive . Personally we dont lose sleep over it , but we can see how it would demoralise a new couple just starting , and the consequence will be simple . The only people you will encounter will be the 'twenty guys without condoms' couples as those that prefer less extreme fun will be marginalised , and those voyeurs who like to watch without loudmouthing will be intimidated away from the sites .
hey Ho
As most here know we enjoy the 'showing ' aspect of dogging and were we the sort that desired extreme participation were not at all sure a carpark is a suitable venue . Blues comparison to a club isnt really like for like as the situation and atmosphere are completely different .
The suggestion that you might walk away if the lady involved was ' a bit big ' or to put it more politely not your type is fair enough if the initial approach is a quick look in the window and then walk stright away , it kinda doesnt rub well though if you watch for ten minutes and THEN wander off mid show .
I suppose the whole difficulty arises because of the whole confusion about dogging and what to expect . Whereas dogging was once predominatly watching with some encounters escalating to some participation (often very mild) now what is really happening is swingers just meeting up in carparks . The expectations are much much higher and what was once the preserve of mostly voyeurs and exhibitionists has now almost made those individuals into outsiders .
I dont criticise people for doing what they want to , its all cool as long as everyone agrees , but for those that complain about the attitudes of what they call 'doggers' they should perhaps remember that most of the men they encounter now days at the popular sites are just chancers and not voyeurs at all .
I still say that walking away after watching part of a show is rude really and insensitive . Personally we dont lose sleep over it , but we can see how it would demoralise a new couple just starting , and the consequence will be simple . The only people you will encounter will be the 'twenty guys without condoms' couples as those that prefer less extreme fun will be marginalised , and those voyeurs who like to watch without loudmouthing will be intimidated away from the sites .
hey Ho
Sex God
Debbiewebs, sorry to Hijack your post but can I just say how bloody billiant it is have to have you posing in the Dogging Forums, you are a breath of fresh air and have really cheered the place up
Back to Topic,
We have had people walk away muttering once they have found out we are not asking them to join in and that we are just playing together. It used to upset me and I did take it personally but I started to think about the reasons they did this and came up with the same reasons as Silk & Big G have mentioned above. If the walk away now, then it is there loss, I will still have fun whether they are watching or not, and I have no intentions of changing my approach to dogging just to please the 'tossers' who have no bloody manners!
Back to Topic,
We have had people walk away muttering once they have found out we are not asking them to join in and that we are just playing together. It used to upset me and I did take it personally but I started to think about the reasons they did this and came up with the same reasons as Silk & Big G have mentioned above. If the walk away now, then it is there loss, I will still have fun whether they are watching or not, and I have no intentions of changing my approach to dogging just to please the 'tossers' who have no bloody manners!
Sex God
Is your visiting (pleasurable as it is ) just curiosity , or are we soon to see the assets of Misstress Dwebs flopped out at a carpark nearby ?? 
Quote by Silk and Big G
Is your visiting (pleasurable as it is ) just curiosity , or are we soon to see the assets of Misstress Dwebs flopped out at a carpark nearby ??
I will flop out at your car park anytime babes............and meet you both anytime...if you are free in the daytime..........just gives us a shout :twisted: o and i am gen on that offer!
OOOO its all pleasure babes!
:wink: see you are as sarcatic as ever
:lol: Sex God
Quote by Debbiewebs
see you are as sarcatic as ever
Yeah sorry its a failing of mine , still feel lucky you arent Silky she has to put up with it every day :-)
By the way thankyou for the offer !! We know youre for real :-) xx
silk &gig g have got it exactly right i started dogging at a very tender age and yes the whole thing has changed ,as for walking bcause "their not my type" you should be able to tell in a glance would certainly never do it in any way to hurt,offend those concerned we are there at the couples invitation when alls said Even doggers should have manners
Master of Sex
Hi everyone,many moons ago I used to go to a place in Manchester(where the last Pope held a mass in 84). a couple used to come in,give all the signals to approach and then when they were approached by doggers he'd known for a while,he got out of his car and got very aggressive with them,threatening violence and being very verbal,it didn't matter whether they'd dogged him before(when everything was 'normal')or the doggers were new,this happened one out of maybe three times they arrived,two times ok,one time threatening and no body knew why. After a while it got to the point where every time this couple arrived on the car park all the doggers drove off and left them on their own,if they turned up at a different car park on the same night looking to be dogged again all the doggers would just didn't know what was going to happen or which mood he was in on any given night so best to leave alone and leave him to stew. Another time I and another dogger approached a car after being signalled to approach,as we got along side the car the passenger door opened and the lady was in such a position as to appear to be trying to clean both door mirrors at the same time with her feet(if you know what I mean)and was naked but a wall of smell hit us as the door opened,I can't describe it other than to say I don't thing she'd showered for months and allmost made me throw up( I shower just before I go out,its polite and B.O. and bad breath are the 2 biggest turn offs there is for me)Well me and the other dogger were trying to push each other to go first,I didn't want to and neither did he,it was quite funny,the upshot was that eventually to be polite I had a play with her with breath held and afterwards tried to get rid of the stench off my hands with allsorts,water(nope that didn't work)wet wipes(that neither).I could still smell it after dousing my hands with WD40,windscreen washer fluid and petrol and when I got home even domestos didn't work,it took swarfega to get the smell off and probably a couple of layers of skin,I felt like I had a compulsive disorder for a couple came in again and no one went near them,the word had got funny now but not at the
Sex God
Both perfectly laudable excuses to walk/run away mate . There are of course always exceptions to the norm .
Master of Sex
you live and learn silk,its what makes life so interesting,lol,john,x
Quote by Silk and Big G
we can see how it would demoralise a new couple just starting , and the consequence will be simple . The only people you will encounter will be the 'twenty guys without condoms' couples as those that prefer less extreme fun will be marginalised , and those voyeurs who like to watch without loudmouthing will be intimidated away from the sites .
hey Ho
yeah, i strongly suspect our venue has gone that way, well, even before we started using it, so can't complain
blimey, thinking back to the early days, it was incredible the amount of couples that cracked onto us looking for partner swaps..the idea that dogging was primearily a voyeur/exhibitionist exchange evaporated, untill we started visiting other sites, then realised how extreme our local was, by comparison.the first contact we had with another couple was interesting. the lady approached us, and enquired as to wether mrs dirty would like to perform on the table with her? there were at least 25 guys around us, and we declined..the fact that many of them had been with her bareback was, lets say "evident" on her inner thigh
many of the regulars have no problem with us at all, whereas some still suspect we'll play, after all, in their words, "eventually they all do"..these are the ones that get rattled, and consider us to be timewasting, as they have to keep observation on us just in case, therefore potentially missing something elsewhere.(our venue is in fact several carparks in an 8 mile area of forest) these guys also verge on hyperactivity..they run fast, drive fast and throw red bull down their necks like its going out of fashion, "time" has a different value to them.
in fact, i was having a similar discussion with "doggingtwo" and "the master" last night..it would appear the only action last night emptied the bloody carpark..we couldn't figure why it was so quiet, then somebody told us a "new face" had taken the lot on :lol: :lol: there is also a term employed, probably more often at our venue than most..its known as "shrinkwrapping"..which to those unfamiliar, means a girl is covered in so much joy juice she appears to be staring back through a polythene bag :lol: :lol:
indeed, many new couples entering the carpark don't stand a chance..sitting in one of the venues last night, we saw a mad max style convoy peeled off to the left, others to the right, whilst a couple of cars scouted the tracks..it was obvious a new couple had entered one of the other carparks and subsequently fled for their lives..the only couples that stay are the bold or/and the then perpetuates the whole thing..
people ask why we use the place at all, well, we like it :lol: there are enough new voyeurs to keep us interested during the week, and at weekends the action, when there is some, is usually open enough for us to get a grandstand viewing..but it has to be said, shows without involvement are very infrequent.,maybe part of this is due to norfolk not excactly being a hotspot for adult evening entertainment..maybe many of the couples we see, would rather take that option, but having to travel some distance, neccessitating an overnight stay, just makes the carpark option the only practical solution in this area.
when we 'show' there, we are aware of the level of expectancy..even though we've used the place for two years, there are still many there that haven't seen us play..we don't do the big crowd thing much these days, 6 or 7 guys are often enough, although i counted 15 at a recent performance..funny that, there were only nine cars in?
:lol: for the guys there, full involvement is so common, little wonder they find a mere "show" to be an anti-climax..its not the guy's desire to have sex with mrs d thats an issue, just the verbalised comments when it isn't forthcoming.we agree with silk and g in that its each to their own, and many of those couples, and guys were using the place long before we arrived on the scene..we also agree that the "dogger" in many cases these days, isn't a man with an appreciation of the game's subtleties, but a person who would call himself anything at all in order to get a shag..if standing in a carpark with his pants around his ankles is what it takes, then he'll be a dogger..but as serendipity remarked upon in a previous thread, his house, shop or hotel room would be available should the oppertunity present itself.
as for our future in dogging..well, there are changes afoot, which will probably see us abandoning the big venue to the extremists..why the sudden change of heart? well, some very erotic chance encounters over the past few weeks, and a very interesting text message recieved by "the master" whilst i was writing this!!! which, unbeknown to him, has just added a lot of weight to some ideas i'd been playing with :lol: :lol:
Sex God
Blimey Mr D you cant leave us on the hook wondering what the " idea" is .
I love the description of ' shrink wrapping' it made me giggle out loud (which frankly looks a bit ridiculous on a fella of my appearance) . Yeah as always we are virtually in full agreement , although having never visited our in depth pervy knowledge of the game we play means we know Norfolk has been a centre for the more extreme of our fraternity for many years . As you know we arent really about whinging , and try not to place constraints on anyone save for common decency and manners .
Even the more irritating habits of the new breed of near-doggers can be amusing if viewed from our personal haze of semi-reality and sick humour. As you hint at though I believe the kind of dogging we like best will become harder and harder to find in the traditional way . We find that sad because many of the things we like about it , especially the spontaneous nature , seem nigh on impossible now .
So thanks for your thoughts , and if you have amazing good ideas for future fun , by all means share them ( secretly if you prefer) with us . We'd be grateful .
Peace
S n G xx
I love the description of ' shrink wrapping' it made me giggle out loud (which frankly looks a bit ridiculous on a fella of my appearance) . Yeah as always we are virtually in full agreement , although having never visited our in depth pervy knowledge of the game we play means we know Norfolk has been a centre for the more extreme of our fraternity for many years . As you know we arent really about whinging , and try not to place constraints on anyone save for common decency and manners .
Even the more irritating habits of the new breed of near-doggers can be amusing if viewed from our personal haze of semi-reality and sick humour. As you hint at though I believe the kind of dogging we like best will become harder and harder to find in the traditional way . We find that sad because many of the things we like about it , especially the spontaneous nature , seem nigh on impossible now .
So thanks for your thoughts , and if you have amazing good ideas for future fun , by all means share them ( secretly if you prefer) with us . We'd be grateful .
Peace
S n G xx
hmmm, not so much a definitive solution i'm afraid, but more a steady trickle of coincidental encounters with situations that although subtle, scream out erotic..as you guys are aware, we share with you a fondness of the "finer points of erotisism"..the text to which i refered was another such encounter, this time by "the master" who has been checking out a location on behalf of us..the venue in question isn't well known, and not one i can hint of here...but it would appear, he has just had an interesting experience there. taken in isolation, it would be insignificant, but, recently, i've been meeting up with him in similarly "unknown" locations, only to have had a far more entertaining evening than our hardcore site could provide...this latest text has really now become a turning point, and when i'm lucid enough to explain my feelings properly and without jepordizing the locations in question, i'll reveal the circumstances and our revised gameplan
Sex God
Yeah you know what , we have often had more fun driving to new sites and finding them empty , than going back again and again to places that are often predictable . There are all sorts of extra possibilities involved in frequenting lesser known sites . Although some of the possibilities are unpleasant of course but hey what reward without risk ? Imagine for example the thrill of discovering the couple who had just wandered over to watch you at the beach had never heard of dogging but were just liberal sexual individuals who were turned on by your erotic encounter , or the amazed incredulity of a man enjoying every minute of the show you are giving - not because he has been there for hours looking at his watch and expecting someone , but just ran into you by chance whilst eating his sarnies in a quiet place .
Im not sure what your new ideas are , but I know you would appreciate the sentiments anyway .
Peace G
Im not sure what your new ideas are , but I know you would appreciate the sentiments anyway .
Peace G
Warming the Bed
I dont see why its rude to walk away from a dogging experience if your not happy being there, I've walked away from a few before and have always made an excuse like i need to go or my phone is ringing in the car so i dont cause upset, I havent just gone with no reason why, its got nothing to do with having no manners.
From my own experience if i'm not happy being there then i'll go, If I don't fancy the lady, too many men present, the wrong vibes put you off. I'm not despererate to shag anything that moves and I actually like to dog a lady who turns me on, if the lady does nothing for me i'll leave them alone and give room to other doggers who have different tastes to me.
Doggers can be selective in exactly the same way as couples can and its not meant to cause offence or upset, its just the way people are, different strokes for different folks. Like a few posters said above a lot of it is down to the mood at the time, I've had a few dogging experiences where the man of the couple is doing all the running and the lady looks like she is just doing it for him, I dont like that and walk away.
I find there are a lot of braindead doggers around at the moment who come into the car parks and light everyone up on full beam, jump out and are straight up on any car regardless of whats in it, this annoys us single doggers so I can imagine what it does to couples. These are the same kind of idiots who have no manners and dont have any respect regarding the couples, and it gives us all a bad name.
From my own experience if i'm not happy being there then i'll go, If I don't fancy the lady, too many men present, the wrong vibes put you off. I'm not despererate to shag anything that moves and I actually like to dog a lady who turns me on, if the lady does nothing for me i'll leave them alone and give room to other doggers who have different tastes to me.
Doggers can be selective in exactly the same way as couples can and its not meant to cause offence or upset, its just the way people are, different strokes for different folks. Like a few posters said above a lot of it is down to the mood at the time, I've had a few dogging experiences where the man of the couple is doing all the running and the lady looks like she is just doing it for him, I dont like that and walk away.
I find there are a lot of braindead doggers around at the moment who come into the car parks and light everyone up on full beam, jump out and are straight up on any car regardless of whats in it, this annoys us single doggers so I can imagine what it does to couples. These are the same kind of idiots who have no manners and dont have any respect regarding the couples, and it gives us all a bad name.
