I watched a programme on Sky about this. One of the statements made by one guy was along the lines of "When you ask a conspiracy theorist to prove it, they won't but ask you to show the evidence. This is because then they have to have their evidence scrutinised".
That struck a cord with me, as they seem to expect you to beive what they say but unwilling to show evidence to support their claims.
Is that something that they want to do so they cannot be proved wrong?
Dave_Notts
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9/11 Conspiracy theory
Often, a conspiracy theory will emerge because there is no provable "hard" evidence at the time, just a strong notion that something took place.
Often, they may be wide of the mark sometimes surprisingly close but in the end, all they seek is the truth - often denied by those who know it.
The theorists motivation may well be mischievous and embellished to the point of absurdity in order to extract some kind of reaction which might be just another piece of a larger jigsaw but the common thread is to cajole someone with the knowledge into a reaction because, human nature as it is, people do like to "unburden" themselves eventually.
Often, they may be wide of the mark sometimes surprisingly close but in the end, all they seek is the truth - often denied by those who know it.
The theorists motivation may well be mischievous and embellished to the point of absurdity in order to extract some kind of reaction which might be just another piece of a larger jigsaw but the common thread is to cajole someone with the knowledge into a reaction because, human nature as it is, people do like to "unburden" themselves eventually.
Remember this from a few months back? Wild claims thrown about but not a shred of evidence provided by way of substantiation and no answers given to the very valid questions.
(scroll to half way down the page)
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopicpage/306337/20.html
It's classic conspiracy theory modus operandi - throw wild claims about and then retreat. I am not sure what that person wanted to achieve, if looking for a reaction then they certainly hit the bullseye.
Being old and cynical (Victor's my hero) I always challenge any theorist to show me the evidence that backs up their claim and then come back for a rational debate. Strangely, they never do, either unable or unwilling. The same works for religious cultists who have the temerity to knock on our door trying to spread their brainwashing nonsense.
(scroll to half way down the page)
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopicpage/306337/20.html
It's classic conspiracy theory modus operandi - throw wild claims about and then retreat. I am not sure what that person wanted to achieve, if looking for a reaction then they certainly hit the bullseye.
Being old and cynical (Victor's my hero) I always challenge any theorist to show me the evidence that backs up their claim and then come back for a rational debate. Strangely, they never do, either unable or unwilling. The same works for religious cultists who have the temerity to knock on our door trying to spread their brainwashing nonsense.
Sex God
I think as flower has said that it is often the lack of evidence that leads people to speculate. Maybe its the bits that are missing from the whole picture, for reasons of security that leave these gaps for others to fill 
Clearly there were things that happened that day that are hard to explain with logic so its only natural to speculate. I try to gather my own evidence and make my own mind up, this leaves me in a difficult situation with WT7, as discussed in previous threads. No one has been able to provide facts that can explain this satisfactorily IMO
Clearly there were things that happened that day that are hard to explain with logic so its only natural to speculate. I try to gather my own evidence and make my own mind up, this leaves me in a difficult situation with WT7, as discussed in previous threads. No one has been able to provide facts that can explain this satisfactorily IMO
Sex God
It does to a point, I have read this before, but don't find it totally convincing. Of coarse I am not a structural engineer, but find it so hard to except that indiscriminate damage could bring this massive building down in the same manner that an implosion would do. If it had toppled some what, or half fell, or some pancaking, that might be more plausible. It is just too perfect demolition job for the damage it received. There are more and more professional people who are casting doubts on what occurred here also.
The best ever reason I have ever had put forward to me was from Dave_Notts, who suggested that perhaps such a building, with its major secrets inside just might have such explosives pre-set. A little far fetched but its the best I have ever heard
The best ever reason I have ever had put forward to me was from Dave_Notts, who suggested that perhaps such a building, with its major secrets inside just might have such explosives pre-set. A little far fetched but its the best I have ever heard
Sex God
Quote by Bluefish2009
The best ever reason I have ever had put forward to me was from Dave_Notts, who suggested that perhaps such a building, with its major secrets inside just might have such explosives pre-set. A little far fetched but its the best I have ever heard
I am unable to find where Dave said this in a previous thread, so it is very possible that it was some one else who said this to me. I apologise to Dave and Hope this has not caused any inconvenience. How ever it was said by some one from this forum as I do not contribute to any others. Or I could just be going crazy
About 911
only three steel structures in history have fallen due to fires and they fell on September 11th, now that is 1 hell of a coincidence. Its impossible for a steel building to collapse at free fall speed...its got matter underneath to crush and collapse so cannot fall at free fall speeds unless the matter below was being destroyed by explosives. Next the tons of molten steel found under the debris a week after the collapse. How come the gold from the vaults at tower 1 were found in the back of a truck under building 2 after the collapse? Slow down and freeze the second plane strike and let us know whats strapped to the bottom of the plane? How come the firemen on the streets described the collapse as Boom Boom Boom Boom when the building was collapsing? Explain the large explosion in the basement that the caretaker gave an interview about which happened seconds before the first plane strike. Why did bush the murderer lie about when he first knew of the supposed attacks? Aint it also weird that his brother was on the board of directors of the security company which guarded the towers. Why were the sniffer dogs pulled out a few weeks before the supposed attacks. How come they couldnt find wreckage at the Pentagon as it was vaporised yet they found one of the supposed hijackers passports. Why are the Pentagon still refusing to release any footage they have showing a plane striking the building. I could go on for days asking questions.
Amount of money allocated for the 1986 Challenger disaster investigation: $75 million
Amount of money allocated for the 2004 Columbia disaster investigation: $50 million
Amount of money allocated for Clinton-Lewinsky investigation: $40 million
Amount of money allocated for the 9/11 Commission: $14 million
HOW COME?
WHAT UPSETS ME IS WATCHING DEBUNKERS AND THEORISTS BATTLE AGAINST EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF COMING TOGETHER TO FIND THE TRUTH.
LAWFULL REBELLION ITS TIME TO SAY NO!
only three steel structures in history have fallen due to fires and they fell on September 11th, now that is 1 hell of a coincidence. Its impossible for a steel building to collapse at free fall speed...its got matter underneath to crush and collapse so cannot fall at free fall speeds unless the matter below was being destroyed by explosives. Next the tons of molten steel found under the debris a week after the collapse. How come the gold from the vaults at tower 1 were found in the back of a truck under building 2 after the collapse? Slow down and freeze the second plane strike and let us know whats strapped to the bottom of the plane? How come the firemen on the streets described the collapse as Boom Boom Boom Boom when the building was collapsing? Explain the large explosion in the basement that the caretaker gave an interview about which happened seconds before the first plane strike. Why did bush the murderer lie about when he first knew of the supposed attacks? Aint it also weird that his brother was on the board of directors of the security company which guarded the towers. Why were the sniffer dogs pulled out a few weeks before the supposed attacks. How come they couldnt find wreckage at the Pentagon as it was vaporised yet they found one of the supposed hijackers passports. Why are the Pentagon still refusing to release any footage they have showing a plane striking the building. I could go on for days asking questions.
Amount of money allocated for the 1986 Challenger disaster investigation: $75 million
Amount of money allocated for the 2004 Columbia disaster investigation: $50 million
Amount of money allocated for Clinton-Lewinsky investigation: $40 million
Amount of money allocated for the 9/11 Commission: $14 million
HOW COME?
WHAT UPSETS ME IS WATCHING DEBUNKERS AND THEORISTS BATTLE AGAINST EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF COMING TOGETHER TO FIND THE TRUTH.
LAWFULL REBELLION ITS TIME TO SAY NO!
10 out of 10 for persistence, but a big fat zero for providing any evidence.
I did as you requested. You do know what a wing belly fairing is and its function with regards to the main landing gear don't you?
My advice: when in a hole, stop digging.
Quote by Louise4Darren
Slow down and freeze the second plane strike and let us know whats strapped to the bottom of the plane?
I did as you requested. You do know what a wing belly fairing is and its function with regards to the main landing gear don't you?
My advice: when in a hole, stop digging.
Sex God
I think, if there were not so many unanswered questions and anomalies, people would not be so interested in what happened, unexplained things happened that day which have never been explained to an extent that have satisfied curious minds.
Sex God
quote="Rogue_trader"]Nothing "unexplained" happened.
If you thought it was unexplained then its quite plain you did not understand what happened, a vast difference.
Well, that is your view point, and opinion, and possibly so, you could well be correct, but there are many people, far more intelligent than me, who believe there are some "unexplained" things which happened that day
1,412 verified architectural and engineering professionals
Now these people could be completely incorrect in all they say, they are heavily outnumbered I agree, but I like to see both sides to a story and make my own mind up, not have it made for me, and I see some things which do not fully add up to me
quite possibly due to my inability to comprehend such things :sad:
This is the one that gives me problems;
If you thought it was unexplained then its quite plain you did not understand what happened, a vast difference.
Well, that is your view point, and opinion, and possibly so, you could well be correct, but there are many people, far more intelligent than me, who believe there are some "unexplained" things which happened that day
1,412 verified architectural and engineering professionals
Now these people could be completely incorrect in all they say, they are heavily outnumbered I agree, but I like to see both sides to a story and make my own mind up, not have it made for me, and I see some things which do not fully add up to me
quite possibly due to my inability to comprehend such things :sad:This is the one that gives me problems;
Sex God
Quote by Cubes
I just spotted this in the Cafe:
Page: 1 of 911
Coincidence? :shock:
;-)
Its a conspiracy
:giggle:
Quote by Louise4Darren
About 911
only three steel structures in history have fallen due to fires and they fell on September 11th, now that is 1 hell of a coincidence.
Maybe the coincidence is the fact that 2 of them are the only steel structures of that type to have been hit ( as far as I'm aware) by airliners fully laden with aviation fuel and the third was in very close proximity?
Sex God
Quote by Max777
About 911
only three steel structures in history have fallen due to fires and they fell on September 11th, now that is 1 hell of a coincidence.
Maybe the coincidence is the fact that 2 of them are the only steel structures of that type to have been hit ( as far as I'm aware) by airliners fully laden with aviation fuel and the third was in very close proximity?
There have been others hit by aircraft, not airliners I agree, can't be bothered to track them down now though.
As a side note, burning aviation fuel really has little effect on the steel structure of a building, as it does not burn hot enough to melt steel. It may warp weaken and de-temper steel but not melt it. The quantity of jet fuel is irrelevant as it can not burn hotter than 1000 C, weather its 1L or 90,000L, this temp of 1000C can only be achieved when the fuel is mixed with the optimum amount of oxygen, as in a jet engine, good job it can not burn hot enough to melt steel really. This maximum flame temperature is reduced by two-thirds, if air is used rather than pure oxygen, as it would have been in the towers. Steel requires 1,500C to melt it.
However, I have Little interest in these two buildings as my problem lies with WT7, as mentioned a few times before...
There was an experiment carried out on steel with a pit of burning fuel. To make it fail (not melt, not explode) took about 2 minutes. It was one of the experiments to kick the truthers in to touch........but they said it doesn't prove anything.
Hmmmmm come up with a theory, get it disproved and then dismiss it out of hand. This is why conspiracists are ridiculed
Dave_Notts
Hmmmmm come up with a theory, get it disproved and then dismiss it out of hand. This is why conspiracists are ridiculed
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
There was an experiment carried out on steel with a pit of burning fuel. To make it fail (not melt, not explode) took about 2 minutes. It was one of the experiments to kick the truthers in to touch........but they said it doesn't prove anything.
Hmmmmm come up with a theory, get it disproved and then dismiss it out of hand. This is why conspiracists are ridiculed
Dave_Notts
I was stupid to right what I wrote as I did not wish really to get into a debate about these two buildings.
However here I am, and sadly have a few more things worth putting forward. Below are pictures of a massive fire in a steel framed
We can only go on what people who are qualified in these areas tell us, there are many who feel the experiment does prove little, softened steel only looses a certain amount of strength when in such a state, and the fires on that day were very very localised through a few floors.
The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel Fire, Feb 2009
Nice pictures but not really relevant to the debate even if the structural design of the load-bearing elements was identical to that of the WTC as that hotel didn't suffer a catastrophic failure of a significant part of its load-bearing structure due to the amount of energy imparted following the impact of over 125,000kg of B767 flying at 400kts. It also didn't suffer the pan-caking of one floor onto another. It's time a lot of these non-believers/conspiracy theorists got themselves clued-up on the difference between static loads and dynamic loads to understand why the collapses occurred.
I'm leaving this thread now.
I'm leaving this thread now.
Sex God
Quote by swcpl2005
Nice pictures but not really relevant to the debate even if the structural design of the load-bearing elements was identical to that of the WTC as that hotel didn't suffer a catastrophic failure of a significant part of its load-bearing structure due to the amount of energy imparted following the impact of over 125,000kg of B767 flying at 400kts. It also didn't suffer the pan-caking of one floor onto another. It's time a lot of these non-believers/conspiracy theorists got themselves clued-up on the difference between static loads and dynamic loads to understand why the collapses occurred.
I'm leaving this thread now.
I am not in total disagreement with you, my problems lie with WT7
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
I am not in total disagreement with you, my problems lie with WT7
So what exactly are the exact problems with WT7? The debunking link said a lot of why WT7 collapsed. Which bits are you unsure of?
Dave_Notts
Very simple for me Dave, unable to back this up with data or an explanation, it fell in a way that is way too perfect. For demolition crews it takes years to learn how to place charges in all the correct places and they all need to go of at the exact correct time to cut the steel structure at the correct time, or they topple one way or another, for this to all happen by an accident is very difficult to comprehend.
we also see more and more professional's who do understand buildings and there demolition, questioning the official storey
There is another thread in the forums talking about how gut feelings are so often correct, my gut instinct is some thing about WT7 does not add up! :wink:
Quote by Bluefish2009
I am not in total disagreement with you, my problems lie with WT7
So what exactly are the exact problems with WT7? The debunking link said a lot of why WT7 collapsed. Which bits are you unsure of?
Dave_Notts
Very simple for me Dave, unable to back this up with data or an explanation, it fell in a way that is way too perfect. For demolition crews it takes years to learn how to place charges in all the correct places and they all need to go of at the exact correct time to cut the steel structure at the correct time, or they topple one way or another, for this to all happen by an accident is very difficult to comprehend.
we also see more and more professional's who do understand buildings and there demolition, questioning the official storey
There is another thread in the forums talking about how gut feelings are so often correct, my gut instinct is some thing about WT7 does not add up! :wink:
So as you have said it takes years to perfect the demolition of a building. Can you answer me then, how did they plant the demolitions, cut through supports and prepare the building for demolition without anyone knowing at all? All the demolition experts have testified that it takes about 2+ weeks to prepare a building like that and thats in full view of everyone.
Whena building is blown there is always bits of evidence all around to show it was blown. The truthers try to say that a super duper new explosive that leaves nothing was used.......or an alien craft came down and gave it a zap without anyone seeing
Gut feelings are one thing, jumping to the wrong conclusion is another.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Bluefish2009
Very simple for me Dave, unable to back this up with data or an explanation,
Do you need these things in order to believe something... the big bang... God... quantum theory...
There are loads of things where there is no data or explanation for them, just events and beliefs. Clearly you don't believe the collapse was due to the given explanation and that is fair enough I suppose.
I don't believe in God as there is no effective explanation for his existence, but millions of people do believe, but I would not say that they are wrong to do so on the grounds that I have no data or explanation.
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
I am not in total disagreement with you, my problems lie with WT7
So what exactly are the exact problems with WT7? The debunking link said a lot of why WT7 collapsed. Which bits are you unsure of?
Dave_Notts
Very simple for me Dave, unable to back this up with data or an explanation, it fell in a way that is way too perfect. For demolition crews it takes years to learn how to place charges in all the correct places and they all need to go of at the exact correct time to cut the steel structure at the correct time, or they topple one way or another, for this to all happen by an accident is very difficult to comprehend.
we also see more and more professional's who do understand buildings and there demolition, questioning the official storey
There is another thread in the forums talking about how gut feelings are so often correct, my gut instinct is some thing about WT7 does not add up! :wink:
So as you have said it takes years to perfect the demolition of a building. Can you answer me then, how did they plant the demolitions, cut through supports and prepare the building for demolition without anyone knowing at all? All the demolition experts have testified that it takes about 2+ weeks to prepare a building like that and thats in full view of everyone.
Whena building is blown there is always bits of evidence all around to show it was blown. The truthers try to say that a super duper new explosive that leaves nothing was used.......or an alien craft came down and gave it a zap without anyone seeing
Gut feelings are one thing, jumping to the wrong conclusion is another.
Dave_Notts
I have not jumped to any conclusion, in fact, quite the opposite, I am reserving judgment on some thing I feel has yet to be fully explained
The explosive is thermite, thermate that I think you talk of, in action in this video;
This is an interesting video also
Newtons law
Sex God
The conspiracy theories are red herrings.....it is irrelevant who planned and carried out the attacks the result is still with us,there remains in certain sections of the west the will to curb the influence of the Muslim east there remains in certain sections of the east the will to curb the influence of the Christian west...we can only be thankful that on the whole the muslim world did not react as planned and ashamed that the we did
Forum Virgin
Quote by Bluefish2009
I have not jumped to any conclusion, in fact, quite the opposite, I am reserving judgment on some thing I feel has yet to be fully explained
The explosive is thermite, thermate that I think you talk of, in action in this video;
This is an interesting video also
Newtons law
Yet they will still need time to expose the pillars. This was never observed.
Does thermite leave no evidence at all?
Dave_Notts
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The conspiracy theories are red herrings.....it is irrelevant who planned and carried out the attacks the result is still with us,there remains in certain sections of the west the will to curb the influence of the Muslim east there remains in certain sections of the east the will to curb the influence of the Christian west...we can only be thankful that on the whole the muslim world did not react as planned and ashamed that the we did
Is that all of the West Staggers or just some? When you say we, does that include yourself.
I do not blame Islam.
I blame those people who crashed the planes and planned it, who as an aside were Islamic.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
I have not jumped to any conclusion, in fact, quite the opposite, I am reserving judgment on some thing I feel has yet to be fully explained
The explosive is thermite, thermate that I think you talk of, in action in this video;
This is an interesting video also
Newtons law
Yet they will still need time to expose the pillars. This was never observed.
Does thermite leave no evidence at all?
Dave_Notts
If this is truthful, then yes
Molten metal would also be a symptom I guess
