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Afghanistan - A pointless waste of life?

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We have all been watching todays dreadful news about yesterdays events in Afghanistan. Does this not seem a bit surreal as most of us get on with normal day to day living whilst servicemen are losing their lives at such an alarming rate in a country that NO-ONE in all of history has ''subdued.''
Where will it end? How will it end? I cant see any good coming out of this. What do others think?
The news has been dreadful and as mrs777's son may well be out there next year, these are worrying times.
I was a firm advocate of our troops going out there as it was the only way to try and stop the war lords of the Taliban, setting up their training camps.
The Taliban are the wests enemy and their aims are quite simple...to destroy us and our way of life. They must never succeed but....will that ever happen?
Increasingly I have been less optimistic of the aims to this war. Where this war is going or how or if it will ever end.
Seeing those soldiers coming home in coffins seems a pointless way to die, but war is never pretty. They join up knowing the risks and are taught to kill. Not nice but a fact of life.
I am in two minds now as to where I stand on this issue. On the one hand I believe the Taliban should be defeated, and the people of Afganistan allowed the freedoms we here take for granted. We should have the restraints removed and let our forces do WHATEVER it takes to defeat them. Our forces are having to fight a war with their hands tied behind their backs.
Equipment not up to scratch. Having to abide by human rights bollox towards the Taliban. They can send 13 year old boys into the front line with explosives on their backs, or hide in Mosques where they know our forces will not attack them. FFS this is a war. Let our forces and the Yanks go in and do the business without any restictions.
If our troops cannot fight this war like that then I say send them home, and leave this God forsaken hell hole to those that choose to kill their own.
I also believe deep down even if that was to happen, this is a war just like Vietnam. It cannot be won. The whole Russian army tried fgs and failed. This is not conventional warfare. We are fighting people who value death more than life.
War ain't pretty, neither is death and both of those things go hand in hand.
So deep down and I do not know if it is because our Son may well be out there but....I am tipping slightly in favour of bringing our troops home. Fuck the Taliban, fuck their country, but I do not want this Government to fuck our troops.
A strong subject this end and our hearts go out to those " heroes " who gave the ultimate sacrifice.....their lives. God bless you all.
Until I know precisely what they're doing and what the consequences will be, I am prepared to reserve judgement. We won't know until it's all over.
Personally, I suspect that once you let the dogs off the leash, it's best not to pussyfoot around. Go in hard and get the job done. That said... whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.
The Taliban are an extreme and oppressive force that rules by fear and terror. Ultimately they will not succeed as fear remains as fear for only so long before it becomes revolution. We are merely trying to accelerate that process to prevent co-lateral damage. Our efforts should be focussed on training those who are most at risk of the Talibans evil ways as it is they who have most to gain and therefore those who will fight the hardest.
Isn't it about time that a martyr popped back from beyond and let it be known that not only didnt all those virgins exist in heaven but ...... one woman with experience is worth more than all the 57 virgins said to be available lol
Passing by the Sunday papers this morning reminded me that I should be more concerned about the support our soldiers are getting from the Powers That Be...
Quote by kentswingers777
I am in two minds now as to where I stand on this issue. On the one hand I believe the Taliban should be defeated, and the people of Afganistan allowed the freedoms we here take for granted. We should have the restraints removed and let our forces do WHATEVER it takes to defeat them. Our forces are having to fight a war with their hands tied behind their backs.

Having read this in a different thread:
Quote by Witchy
I deplore the attitude of thinking that the natives should be dragged from their mud huts & "made civilised." Why try to make everyone like us? Why foist upon them all the crap that goes with a "civilised" society?

That is exactly why we are in such a mess, we have gone and forced "our way is best" down the throats of people who did not know, want, or understand our mentality, they have been raised for centuries with a particular culture, only to see a collective group of nations try and change things to their way of thinking, as it suits them to.
The Soviet Union back in it's heyday and with a huge army, and not too far to travel, couldn't take Afghanistan, was anybody taking notice? The US must have known what happened, they were supplying the mujahideen with weapons and training. Today the US and Britain are attempting to do what the Soviets failed to do, not because they want to take sovereignty of Afganistan, (as the Russians did), but because they want to impose our phony so called "democratic" system upon them.
Every drop of British blood spilt in Iraq and Afghanistan has been for nothing. Bring the boys and girls back home! sad
I was under the impression that the main reasons for going into Afganistan was to stop the training camps where the terrorists were being trained to kill people in the West.
I thought that was the main purpose of this operation?
I would like to know where these terrorists are getting all these rocket launchers and bombs and guns from. If it is from Iran or Pakistan, then we need to do everything possible to stop it at source.
Gordon Brown states that what we are doing is right and just. A strange one coming from a man that sits in his luxury offices, not putting his life on the line. He is letting our troops fight a war with equipment that is not fit for purpose. Helicopters that would save many lives, are still not ready.
Give our troops the right tools for the job. Transport them by helicopter and not by road as this is where we are losing a lot of men through road side bombs.
The British publics support will wain massivly with more troops coming home in body bags.
Right tools for the job or bring them home.....now.
Do we stay or should we go ... my own feeling is moving towards pulling our troops out because I'm not sure anything useful is being achieved by being there.
Quote by kentswingers777
I was under the impression that the main reasons for going into Afganistan was to stop the training camps where the terrorists were being trained to kill people in the West.

I believe that is correct ... nothing to do with imposing our democratic system over there, not sure why people seem to think it is ... part of the nations obsession with self-loathing or something rolleyes
Brown put yet another spin on it all today when he said that we have to stop the Taliban because, and this is one I haven't heard before in the same context. They don't just seek to take over in Afghanistan, they also seek to invade and occupy Pakistan, (is anyone convinced they could do this?). His justification for further conflict and loss of life in that region is that they could get their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obviously the reporters etc around him today had been selected from a group that had no intention of shooting this rubbish down in flames. This is so full of holes that it even makes Iraq's weapons of mass destruction appear more believable.
If anyone here is worried about or has lost loved ones in this or the Iraq war, please don't think my criticism is directed at our brave service men and women. These wars are started by the smug, sniveling politicians in parliament. They will be fought, won, or lost by the blood and toil of our children, many of whom will never make it home. sad
Quote by BrightonGeezer
Brown put yet another spin on it all today when he said that we have to stop the Taliban because, and this is one I haven't heard before in the same context. They don't just seek to take over in Afghanistan, they also seek to invade and occupy Pakistan, (is anyone convinced they could do this?). His justification for further conflict and loss of life in that region is that they could get their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obviously the reporters etc around him today had been selected from a group that had no intention of shooting this rubbish down in flames. This is so full of holes that it even makes Iraq's weapons of mass destruction appear more believable.
If anyone here is worried about or has lost loved ones in this or the Iraq war, please don't think my criticism is directed at our brave service men and women. These wars are started by the smug, sniveling politicians in parliament. They will be fought, won, or lost by the blood and toil of our children, many of whom will never make it home. sad

This is not a new "spin" and is a very real threat. Pakistan is increasingly unstable and whilst it is unrealistic that the Taliban could invade and occupy Pakistan, they are doubtless influencing that instability. It would indeed be a night mare scenario if Pakistan were to become radicalised and their nuclear weapons fall into the hands of those that wish to destroy the West.
Quote by Max777
Brown put yet another spin on it all today when he said that we have to stop the Taliban because, and this is one I haven't heard before in the same context. They don't just seek to take over in Afghanistan, they also seek to invade and occupy Pakistan, (is anyone convinced they could do this?). His justification for further conflict and loss of life in that region is that they could get their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obviously the reporters etc around him today had been selected from a group that had no intention of shooting this rubbish down in flames. This is so full of holes that it even makes Iraq's weapons of mass destruction appear more believable.
If anyone here is worried about or has lost loved ones in this or the Iraq war, please don't think my criticism is directed at our brave service men and women. These wars are started by the smug, sniveling politicians in parliament. They will be fought, won, or lost by the blood and toil of our children, many of whom will never make it home. sad

This is not a new "spin" and is a very real threat. Pakistan is increasingly unstable and whilst it is unrealistic that the Taliban could invade and occupy Pakistan, they are doubtless influencing that instability. It would indeed be a night mare scenario if Pakistan were to become radicalised and their nuclear weapons fall into the hands of those that wish to destroy the West.
The nuclear advancement of Pakistan has made them just about capable of threatening India, the stability of that region is already under threat but India can hit back. Neither have the firepower to threaten the west so I'm still convinced it is another rhetorical excuse.
Quote by BrightonGeezer
The nuclear advancement of Pakistan has made them just about capable of threatening India, the stability of that region is already under threat but India can hit back. Neither have the firepower to threaten the west so I'm still convinced it is another rhetorical excuse.

I've a feeling that just one of Pakistan's nuclear warheads smuggled onto a freighter and detonated off Brighton pier might change your mind.
A terrorist on the offensive will always have the upper hand over a stable incumbent. as the IRA used to say - they only had to get lucky once whereas the occupying forces had to be lucky all the time.
The situation is Afghanistan will, in my opinion, get much worse not just for this reason but because the troops on the ground are not fulfilling the role required to stabilise the country.
The area's where the action is focused in and around Helmand is only patrolled and is not occupied. Forces work best when land is taken and then secured this is not happening as Forces appear to be patrolling and looking for an egagement. As the Forces withdraw from the patrol, the insurgents simply leak back into the area to place their roadside bombs and prepare ambushes.
Perhaps we should be thinking about something radically different and simply allowing the Afghans to get on with their lives and then we take on the role of the 'terrorist' - ie we keep the entire country under surveillance and hurl death and destruction from the skies whenever so called training camps are observed. Psychologically this is an entirely different role to what we are doing at the moment and puts the allied forces on the offensive.
The comments about Afghanistan and Pakistan are very real indeed. part of the border area's are vitually ungovernable already with taliban cells running entire provinces.
There is no answer but what is going on at the moment does not seem right and unless something different is done then it looks like there will be more of the same to come.
Afghanistan is the only one of Blair's killing grounds that may have a reason. Other than out doing Maggy, or taking a bit off of Russia.
...but I have still not made my mind up.
Well I dont think you can enforce democracy, there are way to many examples of us failing to do that.
As for terrorist training camps, if i were Taliban Id simply move them. So quite what are we doing there? I suspect its all about oil.
Quote by Max777
Brown put yet another spin on it all today when he said that we have to stop the Taliban because, and this is one I haven't heard before in the same context. They don't just seek to take over in Afghanistan, they also seek to invade and occupy Pakistan, (is anyone convinced they could do this?). His justification for further conflict and loss of life in that region is that they could get their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obviously the reporters etc around him today had been selected from a group that had no intention of shooting this rubbish down in flames. This is so full of holes that it even makes Iraq's weapons of mass destruction appear more believable.
If anyone here is worried about or has lost loved ones in this or the Iraq war, please don't think my criticism is directed at our brave service men and women. These wars are started by the smug, sniveling politicians in parliament. They will be fought, won, or lost by the blood and toil of our children, many of whom will never make it home. sad

This is not a new "spin" and is a very real threat. Pakistan is increasingly unstable and whilst it is unrealistic that the Taliban could invade and occupy Pakistan, they are doubtless influencing that instability. It would indeed be a night mare scenario if Pakistan were to become radicalised and their nuclear weapons fall into the hands of those that wish to destroy the West.
I think that is not completely true.

The taliban alread occupy an area within Pakistan, and as we know fron history, once you occupy one piece it will not be long before you want another, and then another.
The Taliban have long fingers and already influence people and areas within Pakistan.
I do not know too much about the history there, other than what I have heard and read.
I believe the Afghan people occupied part of what is now Pakistan before we the west decided that they shouldnt.
Quote by kentswingers777
Brown put yet another spin on it all today when he said that we have to stop the Taliban because, and this is one I haven't heard before in the same context. They don't just seek to take over in Afghanistan, they also seek to invade and occupy Pakistan, (is anyone convinced they could do this?). His justification for further conflict and loss of life in that region is that they could get their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obviously the reporters etc around him today had been selected from a group that had no intention of shooting this rubbish down in flames. This is so full of holes that it even makes Iraq's weapons of mass destruction appear more believable.
If anyone here is worried about or has lost loved ones in this or the Iraq war, please don't think my criticism is directed at our brave service men and women. These wars are started by the smug, sniveling politicians in parliament. They will be fought, won, or lost by the blood and toil of our children, many of whom will never make it home. sad

This is not a new "spin" and is a very real threat. Pakistan is increasingly unstable and whilst it is unrealistic that the Taliban could invade and occupy Pakistan, they are doubtless influencing that instability. It would indeed be a night mare scenario if Pakistan were to become radicalised and their nuclear weapons fall into the hands of those that wish to destroy the West.
I think that is not completely true.

The taliban alread occupy an area within Pakistan, and as we know fron history, once you occupy one piece it will not be long before you want another, and then another.
The Taliban have long fingers and already influence people and areas within Pakistan.
I do not know too much about the history there, other than what I have heard and read.
I agree with you Kent and that's pretty much what I said. With regards to the Taliban invading and occupying Pakistan, I was responding to Brightongeezer's post as I thought he meant an all out offensive from the Taliban. That is not the way they will go about it.
Quote by kentswingers777
Brown put yet another spin on it all today when he said that we have to stop the Taliban because, and this is one I haven't heard before in the same context. They don't just seek to take over in Afghanistan, they also seek to invade and occupy Pakistan, (is anyone convinced they could do this?). His justification for further conflict and loss of life in that region is that they could get their hands on Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obviously the reporters etc around him today had been selected from a group that had no intention of shooting this rubbish down in flames. This is so full of holes that it even makes Iraq's weapons of mass destruction appear more believable.
If anyone here is worried about or has lost loved ones in this or the Iraq war, please don't think my criticism is directed at our brave service men and women. These wars are started by the smug, sniveling politicians in parliament. They will be fought, won, or lost by the blood and toil of our children, many of whom will never make it home. sad

This is not a new "spin" and is a very real threat. Pakistan is increasingly unstable and whilst it is unrealistic that the Taliban could invade and occupy Pakistan, they are doubtless influencing that instability. It would indeed be a night mare scenario if Pakistan were to become radicalised and their nuclear weapons fall into the hands of those that wish to destroy the West.
I think that is not completely true.

The taliban alread occupy an area within Pakistan, and as we know fron history, once you occupy one piece it will not be long before you want another, and then another.
The Taliban have long fingers and already influence people and areas within Pakistan.
I do not know too much about the history there, other than what I have heard and read.
I agree with you Kent and that's pretty much what I said. With regards to the Taliban invading and occupying Pakistan, I was responding to Brightongeezer's post as I thought he meant an all out offensive from the Taliban. That is not the way they will go about it.
Anybody know why we are there?
Quote by benrums0n
Anybody know why we are there?

The former Taliban government of Afghanistan was sympathetic to the aims of osama bin laden and his Cronies and provided a safe haven for terrorists to train and organise themselves. Seemingly the combined Intelligence services of the USA & UK did at least get that right.
Notwithstanding the fact that the Taliban were/are a pretty extreme and intolerant bunch I think it was their refusal to deal with the terrorists that led to them being booted militarily.
I see, anybody got any idea why we havent invaded saudi arabia?
Quote by benrums0n
Anybody know why we are there?

benrums0n,
The following recent CNN Video (it's not long) will answer these questions...

It's all around 'India vs. Pakistan'.
Cheers
Quote by Wunderhorse
It's all around 'India vs. Pakistan'.

India is getting richer in terms of GDP thus leaving Pakistan behind.
Thus internal Political Pressure in Pakistan, as it shows up that nations weakness compared to India.
A mixture of pure hatred for India & that populations internal anger at their Political Military Class for allowing them to be so clearly left behind.
Instead of Pakistan learning from other nations on Development, they will 'help' The West by becoming negotiator with The Taliban.
With their ONLY catch is for The West to control / slow down India's current rapid development.
Pakistan get loads of Western Money, Development & Technology. Within 10 years they suddenly are on the same level as India, thus competition for the same markets.
Pakistan doesn't lose face & national pride, restored.
Shame, these things occur.
Quote by HJ

The nuclear advancement of Pakistan has made them just about capable of threatening India, the stability of that region is already under threat but India can hit back. Neither have the firepower to threaten the west so I'm still convinced it is another rhetorical excuse.

I've a feeling that just one of Pakistan's nuclear warheads smuggled onto a freighter and detonated off Brighton pier might change your mind.
Think about it, if a nuclear warhead of any type was detonated off Brighton Pier. How on earth would I get the chance to change my mind? Being dead I guess I would at best be somewhat indifferent smile.
Quote by Too Hot
Anybody know why we are there?

The former Taliban government of Afghanistan was sympathetic to the aims of osama bin laden and his Cronies and provided a safe haven for terrorists to train and organise themselves. Seemingly the combined Intelligence services of the USA & UK did at least get that right.
Notwithstanding the fact that the Taliban were/are a pretty extreme and intolerant bunch I think it was their refusal to deal with the terrorists that led to them being booted militarily.
So how come we prosecuted an illegal invasion of Iraq?
dunno
Is it because, as someone once suggested, that George Dubbya could spell Iraq but not Afghanistan?
Here, this is the kind of crap that bugs me. If the Powers That Be are going to send people off to risk life and limb (and sanity), for good reasons or not, the least they can do is make sure nothing goes wrong at their end.

Isn't the enemy already trying to kill us hard enough?
Quote by GnV
Anybody know why we are there?

The former Taliban government of Afghanistan was sympathetic to the aims of osama bin laden and his Cronies and provided a safe haven for terrorists to train and organise themselves. Seemingly the combined Intelligence services of the USA & UK did at least get that right.
Notwithstanding the fact that the Taliban were/are a pretty extreme and intolerant bunch I think it was their refusal to deal with the terrorists that led to them being booted militarily.
So how come we prosecuted an illegal invasion of Iraq?
dunno
Is it because, as someone once suggested, that George Dubbya could spell Iraq but not Afghanistan?
Weapons of Mass Destruction - That was the pitch at the time but of course turned out to be bollox. The int. in fghanistan was correct no matter how woefully wrong it was in Iraq.