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Sex God
IMHO a death penalty is only sufficient where the evidence is 100% accurate and the crime warrants it. Since this country abolished such a sentence the respect for evidence has grown massively and the detection methods are vast. For example in the past we had witness statements and fingerprints, now we have a whole host of DNA trails, footprints even ear prints.
There have been cases in the pass where someone has been executed and then pardoned after death. I for one believe that this is far less likely to occur today as evidence is collected, recorded and certainly far more high tech than it was before.
However, a death penalty is a harsh and brutal step backwards for our society, and isn't a simple case of yes or no.
Politicians aren't stupid and are aware that this issue is too sensitive to be a vote winning policy and will stay well away from it.
Just my two pence worth, now please don't start getting offensive again.
There have been cases in the pass where someone has been executed and then pardoned after death. I for one believe that this is far less likely to occur today as evidence is collected, recorded and certainly far more high tech than it was before.
However, a death penalty is a harsh and brutal step backwards for our society, and isn't a simple case of yes or no.
Politicians aren't stupid and are aware that this issue is too sensitive to be a vote winning policy and will stay well away from it.
Just my two pence worth, now please don't start getting offensive again.
Sex God
Whilst evidence may well be more 'hi tech' than it once was, the case this week where some poor soul had been locked up for throws sharp focus on the 'evidence' against him.
He was innocent.
Just happens that the private labs (though it could be any) had cross contaminated DNA samples from the victim with a totally separate sample for something completely innocent/another matter.
End result was that he was 'matched' to the victim and locked up for nearly 2 months, even though further investigation showed he was physically over 100 miles away at the time. Hopefully they will get the person actually responsible for the and this innocent man will resume normal life.
Accidents / human error does happen and 'luckily' he was only locked up for a few months, though imagine if it was another crime and Capital Punishment had occurred.
He was innocent.
Just happens that the private labs (though it could be any) had cross contaminated DNA samples from the victim with a totally separate sample for something completely innocent/another matter.
End result was that he was 'matched' to the victim and locked up for nearly 2 months, even though further investigation showed he was physically over 100 miles away at the time. Hopefully they will get the person actually responsible for the and this innocent man will resume normal life.
Accidents / human error does happen and 'luckily' he was only locked up for a few months, though imagine if it was another crime and Capital Punishment had occurred.
Sex God
can i press the button can i cani :bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
There are a whole host of problems with the death penalty. There are lots of practical, procedural and cost implications. Because of the need for absolute certainty and the fact that human error can and does happen, people on death row in the USA wait for years and go through a long series of appeals before the sentence is carried out. So, it costs a lot more to imprison and process death row prisoners than it does to imprison a person with a sentence of life imprisonment. There are therefore no arguments that it saves tax-payers' money to impose the death penalty rather than imprison people for life. This leaves us only with a potential moral justification, which makes it a political hot potato.
My personal opinion is that there is no place for the death penalty in civilised society. I believe that criminals should be punished, but also that reform and education should play a part in the criminal justice system. The death penalty is nothing more than state-sanctioned revenge.
My personal opinion is that there is no place for the death penalty in civilised society. I believe that criminals should be punished, but also that reform and education should play a part in the criminal justice system. The death penalty is nothing more than state-sanctioned revenge.
Sex God
Because it is such an emotive and complex issue is exactly why no political party will touch this issue.
It's not a vote winner, therefore there wont be a referendum.
Even if there was I for one would vote against it.
It's not a vote winner, therefore there wont be a referendum.
Even if there was I for one would vote against it.
I think it is way too much of a political hot potato for any political party to go anywhere near it. If a party were to offer a referendum on the death penalty, I think it would inevitably come across as that party supporting the death penalty. To make any referendum worthwhile, people need to be told the arguments for and against. I just can't see any political party wanting to get involved in that.
Sex God
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
-Fyodor Dostoevsky
As true now as it was 150 odd years ago. Any nation that still executes its own citizens as a matter of course, regardless of the severity of the original crime being punished fails the civilisation test, and absolutely fails it in my view as soon as simple political expediency and 'popular opinion' trump the duty of care properly owed by the State to the very least of its citizens, even the very worst of them. The death penalty exists to absolve the State of its moral obligation to the citizen it's sworn to protect and defend when it suits, before we even get to the individual facts of individual cases, and that's what makes cold-blooded State execution morally wrong in all circumstances, regardless of the specifics IMO.
On this I'd argue that the reason we elect this Govt or that in the first place is to take the decisions we're not fully qualified to make for ourselves where our darkest, most visceral emotional reactions to the actions of another human being are concerned. It's easy to dress up blood-lust and vengeance as morally just retribution for some crimes, but the darker motives at the heart of capital punishment remain, and taint the soul of the nation. So much so that we've gone so far as a nation as to sign away the right to reintroduce the death penalty come what may domestically with the 2002 signing of Protocol 13 of the ECHR that forbids it, binding us so powerfully to a treaty only the UK's withdrawal from the Council of Europe altogether can unmake. Guess that makes the whole question of a referendum somewhat moot Flower?
-Fyodor Dostoevsky
As true now as it was 150 odd years ago. Any nation that still executes its own citizens as a matter of course, regardless of the severity of the original crime being punished fails the civilisation test, and absolutely fails it in my view as soon as simple political expediency and 'popular opinion' trump the duty of care properly owed by the State to the very least of its citizens, even the very worst of them. The death penalty exists to absolve the State of its moral obligation to the citizen it's sworn to protect and defend when it suits, before we even get to the individual facts of individual cases, and that's what makes cold-blooded State execution morally wrong in all circumstances, regardless of the specifics IMO.
On this I'd argue that the reason we elect this Govt or that in the first place is to take the decisions we're not fully qualified to make for ourselves where our darkest, most visceral emotional reactions to the actions of another human being are concerned. It's easy to dress up blood-lust and vengeance as morally just retribution for some crimes, but the darker motives at the heart of capital punishment remain, and taint the soul of the nation. So much so that we've gone so far as a nation as to sign away the right to reintroduce the death penalty come what may domestically with the 2002 signing of Protocol 13 of the ECHR that forbids it, binding us so powerfully to a treaty only the UK's withdrawal from the Council of Europe altogether can unmake. Guess that makes the whole question of a referendum somewhat moot Flower?
Quote by flower411
It was inevitable that this would turn into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the death penalty but I was also interested in finding out if people thought we should hold a referendum.
Shouldn`t at least one political party offer it as an option ?
This country was taken into a war of revenge in Afghanistan where innocent people are murdered on a daily basis, so we already have state sanctioned revenge against the innocent, why not against the guilty ?
I don't follow your logic. Our troops are not in Afghanistan as a result of a referendum.
Seeing as how you are asking the question, what are your thoughts on the matter?
Sex God
One tries Lilith, one tries. 
I'm sometimes spurred to try and raise my game a bit more at times though, knowing who might be reading it. ;)
I'm sometimes spurred to try and raise my game a bit more at times though, knowing who might be reading it. ;) Sex God
Depends where you're sat I guess GnV, dunnit? 
Some will no doubt remember though that I've not always been this coherent and reasonable eh, but shush, now's not the time! ;)
Some will no doubt remember though that I've not always been this coherent and reasonable eh, but shush, now's not the time! ;) 
Sex God
The UK has a democracy? Since when?
If it were a dmeocracy the subjects that the population want discussing in parliament would be discussed. What gets discussed is based on how many votes it will get or lose the party involved.
And wouldn't we actually have a choice that included people that were competent to do what we, the people, tell them to do? And weren't criminals?
If it were a dmeocracy the subjects that the population want discussing in parliament would be discussed. What gets discussed is based on how many votes it will get or lose the party involved.
And wouldn't we actually have a choice that included people that were competent to do what we, the people, tell them to do? And weren't criminals?
Quote by flower411
It was inevitable that this would turn into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the death penalty but I was also interested in finding out if people thought we should hold a referendum.
Shouldn`t at least one political party offer it as an option ?
This country was taken into a war of revenge in Afghanistan where innocent people are murdered on a daily basis, so we already have state sanctioned revenge against the innocent, why not against the guilty ?
I don't follow your logic. Our troops are not in Afghanistan as a result of a referendum.
Seeing as how you are asking the question, what are your thoughts on the matter?
That doesn`t surprise me in the least
I didn`t suggest that there had been a referendum ... I was answering liliths comment about state sanctioned revenge.
Maybe you should express yourself more clearly then?
So why should one of the political parties offer a referendum as an option? You didn't answer my question as to what your thoughts are on this mater. You're so keen to hear every one else's views, let's hear yours.
Quote by foxylady2209
The UK has a democracy? Since when?
If it were a dmeocracy the subjects that the population want discussing in parliament would be discussed. What gets discussed is based on how many votes it will get or lose the party involved.
And wouldn't we actually have a choice that included people that were competent to do what we, the people, tell them to do? And weren't criminals?
Well, that depends on your definition of "democracy". We have a representative democracy, rather than a direct democracy (primarily due to the size of the population), which will never be perfect. It is inevitable that what is discussed is directly related to how to get votes. But, there aren't really many alternatives that have been shown to work in modern civilisation...
Quote by flower411
It was inevitable that this would turn into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the death penalty but I was also interested in finding out if people thought we should hold a referendum.
Shouldn`t at least one political party offer it as an option ?
This country was taken into a war of revenge in Afghanistan where innocent people are murdered on a daily basis, so we already have state sanctioned revenge against the innocent, why not against the guilty ?
I don't follow your logic. Our troops are not in Afghanistan as a result of a referendum.
Seeing as how you are asking the question, what are your thoughts on the matter?
That doesn`t surprise me in the least
I didn`t suggest that there had been a referendum ... I was answering liliths comment about state sanctioned revenge.
Maybe you should express yourself more clearly then?
So why should one of the political parties offer a referendum as an option? You didn't answer my question as to what your thoughts are on this mater. You're so keen to hear every one else's views, let's hear yours.
Maybe you should try reading the words in front of you before coming along and trying to stir up trouble ..
I'm not trying to stir up trouble. That's your forte. It's customary practice for the OP to express their opinion, is it not? If your not prepared to express your opinion, why should you expect anyone else to express theirs?
Quote by flower411
I was interested in hearing your view on the subject. Of course you may not have one and only started a thread on a controversial topic in the hope of causing trouble? Perish the thought eh?
Everybody was discussing the subject without any problem until you came in and started trying to stir up trouble ....I`ll give my views when I wish and not because you demand it. Go and take your wooden spoon elsewhere.
As said before Flower, your collection of wooden spoons is without equal. My request was perfectly reasonable. You asked others for their opinion, I asked you for yours. I can't see your problem!
Sex God
Children fighting again - Foxy leaves the thread. Well done kiddies. :disgusted:
Sex God
Quote by neilinleeds
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
-Fyodor Dostoevsky
I'm interested to know what would be considered about our society based on our prison service
Sex God
I'm interested to know what would be considered about our society based on our prison service
That the good work done in the wake of the Strangeways Riots and the Woolf Report that turned the prison service on its head, forcing through long overdue changes to your typical regime has been undone to some extent by our predeliction for jailing so many for quite petty offences, frequently linked to substance abuse for terms of 3, 6 and 12 months where a community penalty and treatment order would be more effective long term. Addiction should be seen more as a health problem than a criminal problem, criminal behaviour being secondary to that addiction. Treat the addiction, treat the causes of crime at the same time. This is a no-brainer. A large transient flow of prisoners on sentences too short to allow for anything even approaching treatment and rehabilitation keeping the prison population at max capacity steals resources away from properly constructive engagement with prisoners serving longer sentences so the whole thing becomes merely an exercise in warehousing bodies.
I think prison officers generally do their best to ensure prison is as safe and humane as it can be in the circumstances but understand only too well it's largely an exercise in futility unless you can seek to address the criminal behaviours of the more serious offenders so they're fit for eventual release. The recidivism rates show that prison doesn't work, except to keep offenders off the streets for a time before kicking them back out in a worse situation than they were before they arrived at prison having only their wits and criminal talents to help them survive before being dragged back to gaol for new offences. It's a merry-go-round, complete waste of time. A more rational prison policy with properly constructive aims is definitely needed, and sooner rather than later. Lot of room for improvement, failure to make those improvememnts indicating we're not so civilised as we could be, and should want to be.
