Gary Mkinnon - Harmless hacker or threat to world security?

2 Dec 2009

Before I retired, I worked in IT security. Given the amount of money and resource I know the US commits to defending its critical national infrastructure, you'd think they'd be beating a path to this guy's door, with a big bag of cash in return for him showing them how he did it.
I don't condone malicious hacking, however, we live in the real world and it's going to happen. I don't think this guy is malicious, just one of those slightly off kilter obsessives who like to pursue this sort of thing.
Should the home secretary block his extradition?

2 Dec 2009

I do not know the legal implications of " hacking " but this guy surely must have known what he was doing was illegal?
He was clever enough to " hack " and surely that cannot be an easy thing to do for a mere mortal computer buff?
So on that basis he must be quite a clever fecker to have " hacked " into whatever he did?
IF it is illegal to do, then the Yanks have every right to get him extradited to face trial. Even the Home Secretary has not tried to block it, which must show the seriousness of the crime?
I believe that IF he is found guilty, then the sentence should be served in a UK jail, as that is where the crime took place.
A bit of inter talking between both sides will no doubt come to that anyway.
Do the crime.....do the time. He ain't as silly as he looks.....or is he?

2 Dec 2009

Isn't the fact that he managed to hack into such a sensitive and critical system of huge importance to the USA and the rest of the world. Imagine the complacency that would exist around these systems if we didn't have guys like Mckinnon and the consequential danger of vulnerable systems at that level is unthinkable. He should be slapped on the wrist and employed immediately.

2 Dec 2009

Kenty - imagine you get into work one morning and someone has left a note on your desk saying you really should sort your locks out, I got in with a hairgrip, someone could nick all your equipment and stock.
They didn't damage or take anything, just alerted you to the fact that your security was poor.
Would you want that person found and put in prison, or would you thank your lucky stars that the break wasn't malicious, and sort your locks out?
(I'm sure your locks are fine btw smile

Having Aspergers, depending on the severity, he might well not have understood the full implications of what he was doing. People like this are often brilliant at maths and problem solving, but aren't safe to cross the road on their own.

2 Dec 2009

Quote by easyrider_xxx
Kenty - imagine you get into work one morning and someone has left a note on your desk saying you really should sort your locks out, I got in with a hairgrip, someone could nick all your equipment and stock.
They didn't damage or take anything, just alerted you to the fact that your security was poor.
Would you want that person found and put in prison, or would you thank your lucky stars that the break wasn't malicious, and sort your locks out?
(I'm sure your locks are fine btw
Having Aspergers, depending on the severity, he might well not have understood the full implications of what he was doing. People like this are often brilliant at maths and problem solving, but aren't safe to cross the road on their own.

I am so glad that people have picked up on the Asperger's Syndrome, my son is currently been tested for this along with ASD, they know he has one of them but doctors been doctors they have to run their tests.
Now my son is only 5 years old and recently went to watch his 10 year old sister in a science competition and he answered 90% of the questions rights (he wasnt taking part just wanted to join in for fun). My daughters teacher was sat next to him and couldnt believe he got so many right. Out of the 21 10 year old theres the highest score was 92% and the lowest was 72%.
However my son cant do the most simply things like get dressed, get washed and use a knife or fork. He doesnt understand when someone is being nice to him or being horrible, he doesnt understand jokes and basically he has trouble fitting in with children of his own age. He prefers to spend hours on his own surfing the internet, than playing with other children. He also has a fear of large groups of people so doing basic things with him like going shopping is a nightmare. He often doesnt realise when he is doing something wrong and you have to spend so much time watching what he does around the house because he has no fear of danger.
I believe this man clearly didnt understand what he was getting into Asperger is a mental disability that no one really understands full and if you read previous reports on Mckinnon he has a fear of flying, what are they going to do knock him out for the whole flight to America.

2 Dec 2009

Quote by john469
I do not know the legal implications of " hacking " but this guy surely must have known what he was doing was illegal?
He was clever enough to " hack " and surely that cannot be an easy thing to do for a mere mortal computer buff?
So on that basis he must be quite a clever fecker to have " hacked " into whatever he did?
IF it is illegal to do, then the Yanks have every right to get him extradited to face trial. Even the Home Secretary has not tried to block it, which must show the seriousness of the crime?
I believe that IF he is found guilty, then the sentence should be served in a UK jail, as that is where the crime took place.
A bit of inter talking between both sides will no doubt come to that anyway.
Do the crime.....do the time. He ain't as silly as he looks.....or is he?

Kenty, in this case - and to keep it simple for ya - sending Mckinnon to a life sentance in the states is akin to giving someone a twenty stretch after they have been caught lifting a pack of biscuits fitted with an RFID chip from TESCOS thus setting off the store alarm.
To wit, many politicians (at the behest of their elite masters) want to introduce new laws that will penalise folks for commiting denial of service (DOS) attacks or 'hacking'
This is where you get up and say that which you have said above.
Then, after YOU are locked up for ten years for accidently forgetting to swipe the above pack of biscuits through the self serve till - and the press covering you case have labeled you as another in a long line of cyvber terrorists - you might just grasp that no, Mckinnon really doesnt warrant being fucked of to a scabby cell in America for the rest of his natural, that there are soem serious alterior motives at work here.
It is, bullshit!
Is that your final word? lol

You do not have to make it simple for me Johny, I can do difficult stuff as well ya know. wink

To YOU I will repeat that one....to YOU it may well be like stealing a packet of biscuits, but if it really was as simple as that, our Home secretary would have intervened. Or are you going to say something along the lines, that what the Yanks tell us to do, we roll over and do? Because that IS bullshit.
If this lad does have an illness, it did not stop him from doing something that as a inteligent person, I would not have a fecking clue how to do it.
The question for me is simply this ( simple for you too John :wink: ).....did he realise the implications of what he was doing? Did he know he was doing something against the most powerful nation on earth, and getting into their security system?
If the answer turns out to be a yes, then the law is there to deal with him but....if it turns out he did not know what he was doing, or because of his illness is not responsible for his actions, then the British Government should step in.
This is about a countries national security, and we know the Yanks are a paranoid lot, but with the current climate, the Yanks are right to come down hard on people who hack into their system....arn't they?
It is a bit like the British guys on that racing boat in Iran, who entered into their waters. People take that kind of thing very seriously.
A difficult one and IF this guy does have this illness, then I cannot understand why our Government did not intervene and stop him being extradited?

2 Dec 2009

You seem a reasonably clued up geezer.....would YOU know how to hack into anyones computer, let alone the Yanks?
I am pretty computer literate yet I would not even have a clue.
Is it POSSIBLE that despite his " illness " he knew exactly what he was doing?
Are you really telling me that this young lad who has Aspirgers, was not responsible as he did not understand what he was doing, and nobody from this Government have stepped in to try and stop his impending extradition?
If that is the case....something smells very funny.
I am not judging him or his actions, as I do not understand how he even did it, my concern is his illness. I do not know enougn about it, but it seems it did not stop him from hacking into something, that the Americans are taking very seriously indeed.
Nobody here can safely say what all the evidence is they have against him, but certainly enough for the Brits to grant the Yanks his extradition, and on that basis it must be a serious issue.
It does seem very strange though how someone like this guy, has the knowledge and the know how to break into their systems...or are people implying that it is not as serious as is being made out?
Will hold me judgement until ALL the facts are released.

2 Dec 2009

HAHAHA, the amazing 'hacker'. you know how he hacked NASA?, all the was doing was pinging random IP addresses looking for any PC with a password of 'Administrator' and a blank password. (you can download apps to do this for you) then he used remote desktop to log onto any PC he found with that stupid setup.
Nasa security = pitifull.
Gary Mkinnon = not exactly super hacker.

2 Dec 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
You seem a reasonably clued up geezer.....would YOU know how to hack into anyones computer, let alone the Yanks?
I am pretty computer literate yet I would not even have a clue.
Is it POSSIBLE that despite his " illness " he knew exactly what he was doing?
Are you really telling me that this young lad who has Aspirgers, was not responsible as he did not understand what he was doing, and nobody from this Government have stepped in to try and stop his impending extradition?
If that is the case....something smells very funny.
I am not judging him or his actions, as I do not understand how he even did it, my concern is his illness. I do not know enougn about it, but it seems it did not stop him from hacking into something, that the Americans are taking very seriously indeed.
Nobody here can safely say what all the evidence is they have against him, but certainly enough for the Brits to grant the Yanks his extradition, and on that basis it must be a serious issue.
It does seem very strange though how someone like this guy, has the knowledge and the know how to break into their systems...or are people implying that it is not as serious as is being made out?
Will hold me judgement until ALL the facts are released.

It is not an illness it is a mental disability.

2 Dec 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
If this lad does have an illness, it did not stop him from doing something that as a inteligent person, I would not have a fecking clue how to do it.

Having aspergers syndrome doesn't automatically render the sufferer un-intelligent....
In fact they can be super intelligent to the point of obsession in a field that interests them....
Many sufferers also do have difficulty in differentiating between right and wrong and find it hard to understand why something is deemed as being wrong.....
It is a very complex disability and every sufferer has their own slightly different traits although many are shared also....
*Must learn to use spill chucker now and again*

2 Dec 2009

Sorry disability I did not even know what it was.
The question that this all hinges on is....did he KNOW what he was doing and the possible implications IF caught?
Time will tell IF he did or did not, and that is where this case lies on the evidence for me.

2 Dec 2009

Quote by john469
Sorry disability I did not even know what it was.
The question that this all hinges on is....did he KNOW what he was doing and the possible implications IF caught?
Time will tell IF he did or did not, and that is where this case lies on the evidence for me.

Fine, if you think a twenty stretch for this is just, I just hope you dont complain whence the time doth come that you find yourself on the business end of an NSA rubber glove for innocently lifting the aforementioned biccies in 2015!
Seems you are a knowledgeable guy, and also an expert in American courts, and also a mind reader.

You know then he will be found guilty? You also know he will be a given a " twenty stretch " ?
Prey tell us here how you know all this....or have you also got insider information?

2 Dec 2009

As this offense was conducted on the world wide web then his case should be tried in a Neutral international court, in Holland for example.
If he was such a threat to American security how come one of their spooks hasn't 'taken him out' in the last 5 years this has been going on?

2 Dec 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
Sorry disability I did not even know what it was.
The question that this all hinges on is....did he KNOW what he was doing and the possible implications IF caught?
Time will tell IF he did or did not, and that is where this case lies on the evidence for me.

Did he know what he was doing and the possible implications if caught, well no one will really know not for another 10-20 years due to lack of research into the disability. An Aspergers person doesnt understand right from wrong, you can look a person in the face with Aspergers but they wont make eye contact with you half the time, they wont actually be listening to what you say half the time and if they are listening they wont understand half of what you are saying. I can repeat the same thing over and over again to my son but he still wont understand, it can takes weeks, sometimes months for him to understand the most simple instructions.
For Mckinnon to go to trial would be totally impossible, you would need a second person to try and explain everything that was being said in court so that he would be able to understand it in his own mind.
People with Aspergers like a routine so for instance getting up at the same time, eating at a regular time, they like to know where their personal items are and line things up for instance tin cans in cupboards would be lined up by height, clothes neatly folded and in colour order, if Mckinnon was tried and sent to prison he would not be able to cope, the fact that he would be enclosed in a cell for 20 hours per day and not have his own personal items around him would simply make his disability worse.
Unless you live with someone who have Asperger or Autism you will never fully understand the condition and until more research is done I dont think it would be fair to try to McKinnon.

2 Dec 2009

I presume that there are different levels of Aspergers?
Or is every sufferer at the same level?
Most if not all disabilities vary greatly from one person to another. We do not know the level of his disability, so to say he should not be tried, could be a tad premature?

2 Dec 2009

Quote by soul-girl
Unless you live with someone who have Asperger or Autism you will never fully understand the condition

:thumbup:

2 Dec 2009

" Some researchers and people with Asperger's have advocated a shift in attitudes toward the view that it is a difference, rather than a disability that must be treated or cured ".
Seems people have different attitudes to this than others?

2 Dec 2009

Kenty... It is definately not something that can be treated or cured... There are quite a few of us on the forums with children that have Aspregers and trust me this guy does not deserve to be thrown in jail as he truely will not realise that he is doing something wrong smile

2 Dec 2009

An interesting read if you want to know a bit more about Asperger

2 Dec 2009

Quote by Kaznkev
" Some researchers and people with Asperger's have advocated a shift in attitudes toward the view that it is a difference, rather than a disability that must be treated or cured ".
Seems people have different attitudes to this than others?

it is true that many adults with aspergers argue they are not disabled,in rather the same way the deaf community do,they argue that being different from us Neuro typicals,there word for the rest of us,is a difference not a disability.
however kenty i would have thought you were the last person to side with this kind of p.c talk lol

Not siding with anyone.
I admitted I did not know about the " disability ", so used the internet as my friend.
There seems to be many levels of this, and my question is, what is this guys level?
If his " disability " is quite low then he must have known what he was doing. If it is high then that is another matter.
I will say again....there can only be two reasons why OUR home secretary did not stop the extradition. Either he licks the Yanks arses and bows to their requests for fear of upsetting them or....there IS enough evidence for this crime to grant the extradition.
Now I do not think he licks arse ( maybe he does :lol: ), or is it the second reason? It can only be one or the other.
I would not want to see this guy get sent to the states IF his condition is bad but....if his condition has been diagnosed as mild, then that would convince me the home secretary was right in his decision.
Then let the courts and Doctors decide, and not a bunch of people on a forum, with their own opinions.

2 Dec 2009

Quote by Kaznkev
And wether he understood the implications of what he was doing is a good question,if you really want to know about Aspergers i can tell you,but a little bit of openmindednes may be required

Yay!
thankyou
lp

2 Dec 2009

maybe, before this chap is shipped off to neverland, he should be given a full 'competance' assessment... by our very own boys and girls, prior to any 'agreement' with the you ess being rubber stamped as a show of legal strength.
should such a chap be used in setting an example?
lp

3 Dec 2009

my fear for the guy is that aspergers sufferers are very literal and faultlisly honest not understanding the concept of dishonesty and the top dollar law folk will twist and turn the poor guy till he won't know which way is up and he won't stand a chance so i for one hope it won't even make it that far

3 Dec 2009

Quote by john469
Sorry disability I did not even know what it was.
The question that this all hinges on is....did he KNOW what he was doing and the possible implications IF caught?
Time will tell IF he did or did not, and that is where this case lies on the evidence for me.

You know then he will be found guilty? You also know he will be a given a " twenty stretch " ?
Prey tell us here how you know all this....or have you also got insider information?
Well, unlike you I am familiar with similar cases that have gone before in the US.
If you were similarly familiar, you would know that a) Gary doesnt deny he did it, and b) the 'twenty stretch' I talk of is on the lighter side of what is being talked about, with many talking of a possible 60 years.
If you were au fait with Kevin Mitnick you would know that he was painted as and jailed for doing far less than Mckinnon has, yet he was still given five years in nick (a year or so of which was spent in solitary) all because the police and politicians painted Mitnick as a bad guy that could 'start a nuclear war by whistling down the phone'.
Now, read that again and ask yourself just 'what' Mckinnon will be facing after the shit he has pulled, and moreso, just what he will be facing after the authorities have finished assasinating his character with bullshit propaganda of the same type they used to do Mitnick?
Are there any frightening similarities that can be observed between Mitnicks case and that of Mckinnon? yes.
The US legal toolbags will paint Mckinnon as the numero uno cyber terrorist; they are already referring to it as the biggest military computer hack of all time.
They will paint him as a man whom could have taken out the U.S overnight; a man - the actions of which - were thwarted... this time; but by christ America and the free world came close to harm, thus... we REALLY need to jail this bastard and afterwards draft new laws that allow us to control peoples access to the internet in an effort to build our police state... er, I mean safeguard peoples saftey!!
And yes Kenty, folks like you will be able to thank yourselves for helping the scum build that police state.
have a biscuit!
That is a unfair comment and completly untrue!
I admitted I did not know about the disability,I also asked about levels of it.
You like many on here are Yank haters...that is very clear. I do not like them very much either, but come on here your sounding like a conspiracy is at hand.
Answer the bloody question as to WHY our home secretary did not stop his extradition!! Now this is where the conspiracy theory will unfold.
Some would say we have a police state here....did I help to build that as well? What a strange anology for a clever guy to starting to make yourself sound a bit foolish Johny.
If I have a biscuit I have to dunk it in me tea first!

3 Dec 2009

In the intervening years since the incident, Gary hasn't committed any further similar 'crimes'. Which must mean he has learned something. So he's that clever. Did he know what he was doing? Yes he did, he was clever enough to work at it long enough to make it successful.
Can we excuse him for his disability? Up to a point perhaps. But how many other people are being convicted who have unrecognised mental problems. If there are enough diagnoses for all the mental abnormalities, pretty soon we are going to have an excuse for anything and everyone. Then no one will take responsibility.
What is the disgnostic term for people with supposedly sane and well balanced characteristics. If there isn't one, why? Hasn't it been disgnosed yet? If its not recognised; the 'sane' are no better qualified than those with undiagnosed mental disorders. Maybe you can only be diagnosed 'sane' after you have been wrongly accused of being 'insane'.
Does he know he's guilty? Prison is full of people who firmly believe they are innocent.
Anyway the Americans are stupid for hooking a secret computer up to the internet. Their main interest is in finding out what he did and how. That seems fair enough to ask for.

8 Dec 2009

Bang on the money..... a great artical that I wish I could have written.

8 Dec 2009

As I've said before if you have never lived with someone who has Aspergers then you will never understand them and clearly from the newspaper article the writer knows nothing about the disability.

8 Dec 2009

Quote by soul-girl
As I've said before if you have never lived with someone who has Aspergers then you will never understand them and clearly from the newspaper article the writer knows nothing about the disability.

So everyone with this disability acts the same then?
They all have the same levels of it?
This artical to me was bang on....he DOES have a case to answer.

9 Dec 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
As I've said before if you have never lived with someone who has Aspergers then you will never understand them and clearly from the newspaper article the writer knows nothing about the disability.

So everyone with this disability acts the same then?
They all have the same levels of it?
This artical to me was bang on....he DOES have a case to answer.
Sometimes your lack of willingness to listen to whats being said amazes even me.....

9 Dec 2009

Quote by soul-girl
As I've said before if you have never lived with someone who has Aspergers then you will never understand them and clearly from the newspaper article the writer knows nothing about the disability.

:thumbup: This is something I have found myself repeating many many times over the past 9 years. The hardest thing is getting people to understand that people who have Asperger's DO NOT understand the concept of consequence...