Hero ??

2 May 2009

Quote by Riotandantony
muslims to say it is fine for there Prophet Mohammed to marry his wife, Aisha, when she was only six years old and to commence having sex with her when she reached the age of nine ?

The religion was started over 1300 years ago. Their holybooks had a different outlook on life than society accepts today. This can be seen in any holy book from any religion.
If you want to bring it up to date-ish.....this country upped the age of marrying of a girl 130 odd years ago from 12. Yep....12. Should I be saying this country is a disgrace? Society changes and people except the change.............holy books do not have that ability. It has been wrote and the written word has to stay the same. That is why people like the Pope say that the Bible is not literal but a way of life. Like a lot of the moderates in other religions.
When you have extremists then the holy books are true. Try going to the god-belt in the USA and say the Bible is not fact. You would be tarred and feathered within minutes.

Quote by Freckledbird
Creationism is taught as well as evolution. A balanced and unbiased approach.

I think you may have missed this bit in FBs post. She said that creation and evolution is taught. The children can see religion and science then work it out with their own minds. That is balanced and fair in my books. How is it not balanced when you are given both areas to look at?
Dave_Notts

2 May 2009

Quote by Riotandantony
Prophet Mohammed to marry his wife, Aisha, when she was only six years old and to commence having sex with her when she reached the age of nine ?

In 1396 King Richard II of England married the 6 year old daughter of King Charles VI of France.
Henry VII of England (father of Henry VIII) was born to a 13 year old mother, in 1457, during the course of her 2nd marriage.
Times change.

4 May 2009

Quote by Riotandantony

This reminds me of the harsh old British saying "Those who can, do - those who can't, teach" !
Perhaps if leftist teachers want to start examining bias in education they could start looking at what is being taught in "faith schools" such as those run by muslims, and for that matter, christians teaching creationism and other such unscientific twaddle.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"I never was waiting for the communist call" ; the Sex Pistols ("Holidays In The Sun").

'Schools' run by Muslims, are run for Muslims and children who attend are taught by an Imam, in a similar way to how a Sunday school attendee is taught by a priest. They run outside (after or before the usual school day) 'normal' school; if a Muslim child lives in this country, they are still required to attend mainstream, normal state school (or private school if they pay). Other faith schools such as Catholic schools, teach the tenets of their religion. The parents of children who attend such schools, are aware of, and embrace that.
In everyday state schools, children are taught about a wide range of beliefs of different religions and cultures. Creationism is taught as well as evolution. A balanced and unbiased approach.
Hope that helps.
No, it does'nt help ! some "faith schools" are funded by the govt (ie, us the taxpayer), whether they are christian evangelist, muslim, sikh, jewish or whatever - children should not be indoctrinated at taxpayers expense.
Also, you describe the teaching of creationism as "balanced", it is'nt balanced, it is unscientific twaddle, for "balance", why not allow hippies to teach that there are pixies in the woods, animal rights cultists to say animals are the same as humans, or muslims to say it is fine for there Prophet Mohammed to marry his wife, Aisha, when she was only six years old and to commence having sex with her when she reached the age of nine ?
Faith schools are funded mostly by the church they represent. People of all faiths pay taxes in this country - if a Muslim/Christian Evangelist, Sikh, or Jew pays taxes, why shouldn't some of it go toward educating his child in his own faith? Oh, and there are Church of England and Catholic schools as well. Just so you know that it's not just the children of 'other' faiths who receive an education appropriate to their faith.
And who are we to say that it wasn't 'fine' for the Prophet Mohammed to marry his wife and have sex with her at whatever age? It's the belief/teaching of that faith - just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it has any less significance for the people of that religion.

4 May 2009

A poem below circa 1800, say's it all form me
Reacher
The Fruits of the War
Says John Bull to Pat,
What would you be at?
For religion and law we are waging this war:
With what pleasure we pay,
Some new tax ev'ry day,
In support of this holy, benevolent war!
Arrah, Johnny astore,
You have come down galore
But what are the fruits of this same blessed war?
Your house burnt and sack'd
The poor sorely rack'd,
Are these the good fruits of this same holy war?
A weight of taxation,
Of grief and vexation,
Are, indeed, my dear Johnny, the fruits of this war.
Compell'd ev'ry day
Some new impost to pay,
Is part of the fruit of this excellent war!
While the rich are all carving,
The poor are all starving â€”
Alas, my dear Johnny, what fruits of the war!
Religion's a fig
Without the tithe-pig:
Is this, master parson, the fruit of the war?
Attempt to petition,
They call it sedition â€”
To stop the career of this prosperous war;
And if you but reason,
Why then 'tis high treason â€”
And to prison, my boys, till the end of the war!

4 May 2009

so go on Ritotandtony, what do you suggest should be taught in British schools to our children (of mixed races,faiths and religions" in terms of the truth of where we are from and what they should believe.
Id love to be able to see if i can agree with you on any particuart point,

4 May 2009

What about the most important things? The 3R'S.
Most other things are just trivial, in the wider scheme of things....or saying that, would that be classed as being too politically correct?
The same things should be taught in EVERY school no matter what the faith of that child is.

4 May 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
The same things should be taught in EVERY school no matter what the faith of that child is.

Agreed
And what FB has said, that is exactly what happens. The other type of "faith school" is additional/extra to the main school of the child. I.e. they go to a secondary between 9:00-3:30 then go to their faith school for additional schooling.
I can't see a problem with that. I had main schooling when I was a child, then on the weekend I had Sunday school. Were my parents wrong in sending me there?
Dave_Notts

4 May 2009

Have we solved it yet................ rolleyes

5 May 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
The same things should be taught in EVERY school no matter what the faith of that child is.

Agreed
And what FB has said, that is exactly what happens. The other type of "faith school" is additional/extra to the main school of the child. I.e. they go to a secondary between 9:00-3:30 then go to their faith school for additional schooling.
I can't see a problem with that. I had main schooling when I was a child, then on the weekend I had Sunday school. Were my parents wrong in sending me there?
Dave_Notts
Not where i live...where, there are many , many Jewish only schools.
The " faith school" is the only one that they go to... full time....errr no, make that 6 (Sunday being Sunday school day)days a Make that 7 if you include where they might go go pray on Sabbath.
There are several Muslim centres of learning and a huge Catholic Senior school and college all within a reasonably small area.
From where im stood, it all looks the schools are churning outGreat results, University places, well-rounded, intelligent repectful young children and adults with normal (yet appropriate) rivalry ie. they dont go round stabbing other children not in their gang and fighting the other schools. They are being treated respect smewhere along the way. Probably repsect for themselves and where they come from initially... which leads to respect of others and an understanding that we are infact different from eachother.
They produce girls with next to no /Low teenagepregnancy rates ,mostly good disciplinary records..Children which will go on to study higher education and be the leaders of tomorrow
and some want it to stop in favour of some single-minded approach that Darwinisnm( which i hasten to add, you probably havnt read or truly understand) is superiour to the thousands of years of intellectual debate and impose the idea of teaching the same to all kids.
The starting point is that we obviously are different, starting with ur races and cultures. Our ancestors have believed very similar, but in certain ways dissimialr things....
if you go round telling people that they come from monkeys, they pretty much act like they do!!!
Teach them the intellectual notions that their ancestors believe, and families and what other people like them have come to believe is the truth, and you might have a start in keeping humanity on a n even keel.
Otherwise, we have , like this debate here.. a group of people who know onlyt a smattering of truth about religious belief which they then try and wrongly fit in to their smattering of secular knowlege. and then have the misguided cheek to think that millions and millions of people around the globe are wrong and they're right...

5 May 2009

Quote by DeeCee
The same things should be taught in EVERY school no matter what the faith of that child is.

Agreed
And what FB has said, that is exactly what happens. The other type of "faith school" is additional/extra to the main school of the child. I.e. they go to a secondary between 9:00-3:30 then go to their faith school for additional schooling.
I can't see a problem with that. I had main schooling when I was a child, then on the weekend I had Sunday school. Were my parents wrong in sending me there?
Dave_Notts
Not where i live...where, there are many , many Jewish only schools.
The " faith school" is the only one that they go to... full time....errr no, make that 6 days a Make that 7 if you include where they might go go pray on Sabbath.
There are several Muslim centres of learning and a huge Catholic Senior school and college all within a reasonably small area.
From where im stood, it all looks good.
Great results, University places, well-rounded, intelligent repectful young children and adults with normal (yet appropriate) rivalry ie. they dont go round stabbing other children not in their gang.
Low teenage (if at all) pregnancy rates ,mostly good disciplinary records..because if you get excluded you end up with the hordes of rabble at a poorly run state school and lose .
and some want it to stop in favour of some single-minded approeach that Darwinisnm( which i hasten to add, you probably havnt read or truly understand) is superiour to the thousands of years of intellectual debate.
if you go round tellign people that they come from monkeys, they pretty much act like they do!!!
My kids go to a Catholic School but it is still main stream. They are taught Catholisism, other faiths and Darwinism. We have some right debates in this house when the kids ask questions and I try to answer them without putting over too strongly how I feel. I want them to get as much info as they can and to make up their own minds......I don't want a mini me......my word, I would kill them if they turned out like me lol

Dave_Notts

5 May 2009

good point dave...
i edited my post a bit whilst you were replying....maybe you want to have a gander at it in full.
I get what your saying tho...

5 May 2009

Quote by DeeCee
good point dave...
i edited my post a bit whilst you were replying....maybe you want to have a gander at it in full.
I get what your saying tho...

I did and have nothing else to add. Agreed with nearly all of it except the bit I mentioned above.........but there again I seem to be agreeing with everyone in one shape or form on this thread redface

Dave_Notts

5 May 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
good point dave...
i edited my post a bit whilst you were replying....maybe you want to have a gander at it in full.
I get what your saying tho...

I did and have nothing else to add. Agreed with nearly all of it except the bit I mentioned above.........but there again I seem to be agreeing with everyone in one shape or form on this thread redface

Dave_Notts
Maybe because you still have that new shiney Mod hat on ? wink

After the original topic started by the op, how did it get to faith schools from heroes? dunno

I think the faith school subject could make for a good new thread on it's own.

5 May 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
good point dave...
i edited my post a bit whilst you were replying....maybe you want to have a gander at it in full.
I get what your saying tho...

I did and have nothing else to add. Agreed with nearly all of it except the bit I mentioned above.........but there again I seem to be agreeing with everyone in one shape or form on this thread redface

Dave_Notts
Maybe because you still have that new shiney Mod hat on ? wink

After the original topic started by the op, how did it get to faith schools from heroes? dunno

I think the faith school subject could make for a good new thread on it's own.
They have given me the hat but no buttons..........they ain't that mad yet lol

The conversation has taken a turn, so another thread could be a good way to go :thumbup:
Dave_Notts

5 May 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
After the original topic started by the op, how did it get to faith schools from heroes?

Working back... you introduced an old article having a go at the teaching union ... which dovetailed into Riotandtonys post having a go at those of other faiths and belief systems.
well, you did ask....

5 May 2009

Quote by DeeCee

After the original topic started by the op, how did it get to faith schools from heroes?

Working back... you introduced an old article having a go at the teaching union ... which dovetailed into Riotandtonys post having a go at those of other faiths and belief systems.
well, you did ask....
Yes I did...................silly me. cool

It was just an observation as to how even the NUT are against the armed forces, for which I was putting my point across.
Then it went off into a side issue. My point about that was purely to illustrate it is not only individuals who are against the army, but large chunks of unions too, barking out their orders to their members.

5 May 2009

But where a debate ends up is often just as interesting and more revealing about it's participants than where it starts....nothing wrong with a bit of a meander

6 May 2009

Quote by DeeCee
The same things should be taught in EVERY school no matter what the faith of that child is.

Agreed
And what FB has said, that is exactly what happens. The other type of "faith school" is additional/extra to the main school of the child. I.e. they go to a secondary between 9:00-3:30 then go to their faith school for additional schooling.
I can't see a problem with that. I had main schooling when I was a child, then on the weekend I had Sunday school. Were my parents wrong in sending me there?
Dave_Notts
Not where i live...where, there are many , many Jewish only schools.
The " faith school" is the only one that they go to... full time....errr no, make that 6 (Sunday being Sunday school day)days a Make that 7 if you include where they might go go pray on Sabbath.
There are several Muslim centres of learning and a huge Catholic Senior school and college all within a reasonably small area.
From where im stood, it all looks the schools are churning outGreat results, University places, well-rounded, intelligent repectful young children and adults with normal (yet appropriate) rivalry ie. they dont go round stabbing other children not in their gang and fighting the other schools. They are being treated respect smewhere along the way. Probably repsect for themselves and where they come from initially... which leads to respect of others and an understanding that we are infact different from eachother.
They produce girls with next to no /Low teenagepregnancy rates ,mostly good disciplinary records..Children which will go on to study higher education and be the leaders of tomorrow
and some want it to stop in favour of some single-minded approach that Darwinisnm( which i hasten to add, you probably havnt read or truly understand) is superiour to the thousands of years of intellectual debate and impose the idea of teaching the same to all kids.
The starting point is that we obviously are different, starting with ur races and cultures. Our ancestors have believed very similar, but in certain ways dissimialr things....
if you go round telling people that they come from monkeys, they pretty much act like they do!!!
Teach them the intellectual notions that their ancestors believe, and families and what other people like them have come to believe is the truth, and you might have a start in keeping humanity on a n even keel.
Otherwise, we have , like this debate here.. a group of people who know onlyt a smattering of truth about religious belief which they then try and wrongly fit in to their smattering of secular knowlege. and then have the misguided cheek to think that millions and millions of people around the globe are wrong and they're right...
Ok, I've struggled with this post for several days now and I can't let this wonderfully sanitised view of things go unchallenged, so I am about to break my vow of commenting on religious issues... If this needs to be in a new thread I apologise to the OP in advance and hope a passing Mod can come by and tinker with it and move it somewhere out of harms way.
Also I want to point out to DeeCee that this is nothing personal to him or his beliefs, which I respect his right to have.
My sole objection with ANY religion in schools, be it Judaism, Catholicism, C of E, Islamic teachings and yes the theory of Evolution (which, incidentally, I have read, I do understand fully and I also understand the implications and limitations of) is not that these teachings are taught to children (which I believe to be a valuable and important thing), but that they are preached.
Children should not be taught what to think. But how to think, so they can form valid judgements of their own based on their beliefs and experiences. That doesn't happen in any secular school. One side of the argument is always presented as being "right" and the others as "Oh, and this is what other people think", or worse (and it does happen) "And this is what all the other people who are wrong and going to hell, think..."
British society is multicultural. This is a good thing, despite what many people would have you believe. Schools that do not reflect this and promote their own belief systems within it, do not reflect the society they are educating people to integrate into. By that very rationale, we are different as you said Dee Cee, but by highlighting the differences, we create potential for divisions, which can then be exploited to foster all kinds of negative emotions. We should be highlighting what makes us human. The basic pretexts of humanity, the core values of any religion are all very similar, it is only the "intellectual debate" over many years that have transformed these core values of decency, goodness and kindess to all, into an absurd form of secular jingoism, that has become a powerful rallying call to those who wish to abuse their place of power in the name of whatever god you choose to worship. Belfast, Beirut and Basra for example.
Rather than edify a pre-chosen deity, should not children be equipped to make up their own minds? Should they not have the right to choose what they wish to believe once they have all the facts? Should they not be educated to serve the society they are happy to be part of? It seems integration works two ways. You can't elect to have all the good aspects of one society and when it suits you, ignore the rest completely. Why should the communities in which these schools and religious areas are, not benefit from the many good things that come from the school? Why should it be only one "community", within a community, that reaps the benefit? Why should secularity be encouraged and promoted as beneficial when it only benefits those who have chosen to belief a certain religious credo? Why can't this goodness be shared with everyone? Surely the basic tenet of religion is to do good, why does good then have to stay within the rigid boundaries of doctrinal dogma?
Faith schools operate in a similar way to Grammar Schools. They cream off the best pupils from the state and leave the state to deal with the rest. They have rigid admissions proceedures, along the lines of "If you don't believe X, you can't come, or if Mum and Dad can't afford Â£6000 a term, you can't come, or if you are of below excellent ability, you can't come" For the people that are products or in this system, then yes it can be great to achieve so much.
However don't expect the society which you have shunned and tacitly ignored, to welcome you with open arms.
I am not advocating the death of religion within schools, or indeed Faith schools, there are a great many facets and customs which must be kept alive and taught through the generations.
Secularity, intolerance and division are three we can do without.
Also to imply that the children from Faith schools provide the "well rounded, intelligent, respectful" leaders of tomorrow while all other children from state education are going round "stabbing each other" is a wild generalisation that quite frankly beggars belief. Also the notion that Faith Schools provide a fair and even education for all, is also questionable.

Anyway, I've rambled far too long, this isn't a personal thing DeeCee, I respect whatever beliefs you choose to have, however I felt I had to put across an alternative viewpoint on the issue as so far nobody had challenged the comments made.
And once again, apologies to the OP if this has gone off at a tangent.

6 May 2009

My initial post that you quoted, was aimed more as a direct response to the posters previously who were , generally speaking against the idea of "faith schools" and implying that we should have one set of beliefs taught accross the board, and although it was somewhat veiled, i thought an attempt to attack Islamic and Catholic schools and what they taught abour religion.
Nice need for so many disclaimers though!!!

6 May 2009

Well Res...........your above comments just about sum it up for me too.
I wish somebody would start a thread up about " faith schools ". This is not the thread to discuss it in.
Res............over to you then. wink

6 May 2009

Don't agree with faith schools full stop!
As far as i'm concerned, religion is brain washing.

6 May 2009

Quote by browning
Don't agree with faith schools full stop!
As far as i'm concerned, religion is brain washing.

Slightly disagree with this - teaching one religion could be brainwashing. Teaching the beliefs of a range of religions, gives people something upon which they can base a choice, or choose not to adopt any faith.

6 May 2009

Faith schools
Please can this thread go back on topic to hero's. :thumbup:

6 May 2009

Quote by Sarah
Faith schools
Please can this thread go back on topic to hero's. :thumbup:

I like the Cadburys Caramel Hero :giggle:
Dave_Notts

8 May 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
Faith schools
Please can this thread go back on topic to hero's. :thumbup:

I like the Cadburys Caramel Hero :giggle:
Dave_Notts
i'm a rocky robin man myself biggrin

9 May 2009

The word hero is a term used to loosley in this day and age.
Our brave men and women of Her Majesty's Forces who put themselves in harms way day, in day out, so we as a nation can breath freedom and go about our daily lives without worrying about those people in the world who want to detsoy our way of life.
These individuals are HERO's, there are people in this country who think they are heros but i am afraid fall way short of the mark compared to our Armed Forces.

9 May 2009

Quote by randy684
The word hero is a term used to loosley in this day and age.
Our brave men and women of Her Majesty's Forces who put themselves in harms way day, in day out, so we as a nation can breath freedom and go about our daily lives without worrying about those people in the world who want to detsoy our way of life.
These individuals are HERO's, there are people in this country who think they are heros but i am afraid fall way short of the mark compared to our Armed Forces.

But not everyone in my view is a hero just because they wear a uniform. This is the basis of this thread running so long.
There are people who wear a medal for Valour in this country that do not wear a uniform. These medals are handed out by HM herself.......in fact her father gave one to a whole island once. Do these people fall way short of the mark compared to our Armed Forces? Queen Elizabeth II nor her father thought they did.
Dave_Notts

10 May 2009

Ooh. Good point. One man's hero is another man's . Or put another way, one man's terrorist is another man's hero.

10 May 2009

Quote by Cubes
Ooh. Good point. One man's hero is another man's . Or put another way, one man's terrorist is another man's hero.

The most moving programme I ever saw was when a Desert Rat and a DAK member were interviewed together. Old enemies re-living their experiences and the animosity disappeared when they realised that they were exactly the same but fighting for different causes.
Dave_Notts

10 May 2009

My uncles life long and best friend was one of the guards at his POW camp.
"Remember the shock of the ambuscade,
Remember the terrible fusillade,
And how we all looked up to see the curious face of the enemy:
Who was young, and shabby, and seemed to be
About as foreign as you or me -
I never did catch what the poor sod said
When he made sure we were dead . . .
This was a couple of shakes before we got killed in the war."-Jake Thackray