We shall have to agree to disagree over the impact of the unions on our modern plight. I saw at first hand the intransigence of myopic shop stewards adhering to anti-productive severely restrictive fact you say they use the legislation for the good of their members is surely vindication of its benefits
The climate issue whether true or not is linked almost directly to our consumption of fossil fuels. Wind power is one of many initiatives that can and should be pursued.I will not bore you with a list of the alternatives I am sure you are well aware of them. In addition to methods of energy generation we should look at energy conservation, or consumption reduction through utilisation of better technologies, or materials, or computer optimisation the subject is almost boundless
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Maggie Thatcher Vs Gordon Brown?
Who would you prefer as Prime Minister, Gordon Brown or a young Margaret Thatcher?
Neither the shop stewards, nor the unions generally were responsible for the re-location of production abroad. The lower cost of production abroad was solely responsible. It still is. The economics of production is the driver for production re-location. It always was. Quantity of labour available, quality of training/education for that labour and cost of that labour will always be the driver of industry.
Have a read:
As for climate change: Fossil fuel use is in no way linked to climate change.
A minor amount. Compare it to the naturally derived amount of CO2. The global warming/climate change industry is the largest Ponzi-scheme in history.
Several hundred billion dollars worth of con trick.
Have a read:
As for climate change: Fossil fuel use is in no way linked to climate change.
A minor amount. Compare it to the naturally derived amount of CO2. The global warming/climate change industry is the largest Ponzi-scheme in history.
Several hundred billion dollars worth of con trick.
“No matter if the science is all phoney, there are collateral environmental benefits.... climate change the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the
Christine Stewart
Canadian Environment Minister
Calgary Herald
14 Dec 1998
“ . . . Perhaps of even greater significance is the continuous and profound distrust of science and technology that the environmental movement displays. The environmental movement maintains that science and technology cannot be relied upon to build a safe atomic power plant, to produce a pesticide that is safe, or even bake a loaf of bread that is safe, if that loaf of bread contains chemical preservatives. When it comes to global warming, however, it turns out that there is one area in which the environmental movement displays the most breathtaking confidence in the reliability of science and technology, an area in which, until recently, no one — even the staunchest supporters of science and technology — had ever thought to assert very much confidence at all. The one thing, the environmental movement holds, that science and technology can do so well that we are entitled to have unlimited confidence in them, is FORECAST THE WEATHER! — for the next one hundred years...â€
I am just about old enough to have some experience of the workplace under "old" Labour. I was sent on work experience to a steelworks in North Lincolnshire. What I will never forget is that men were taking it in turns to work or sleep, clocking in and then buggering off down the pub for a few hours, shift supervisors were getting paid to look the other way, no wonder it was expensive to make steel here. Not long after that I saw the self same bone idle buggers march past my school on strike. "Maggie Magie Maggie, out out out" they screamed, followed by "what do we want? 20%! When do we want it? Now". Less than a year later there was no steelworks there.
Badly run (as they always are) nationalised industries, ultra far left wing trades unions, and at least one generation of bone idle so called working class men, that is what destroyed our industries.
Sorry, but Thatcher was a necessary evil, the nastiest tasting medicine is always the best.
Badly run (as they always are) nationalised industries, ultra far left wing trades unions, and at least one generation of bone idle so called working class men, that is what destroyed our industries.
Sorry, but Thatcher was a necessary evil, the nastiest tasting medicine is always the best.
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Quote by BrightonGeezer
I am just about old enough to have some experience of the workplace under "old" Labour. I was sent on work experience to a steelworks in North Lincolnshire. What I will never forget is that men were taking it in turns to work or sleep, clocking in and then buggering off down the pub for a few hours, shift supervisors were getting paid to look the other way, no wonder it was expensive to make steel here. Not long after that I saw the self same bone idle buggers march past my school on strike. "Maggie Magie Maggie, out out out" they screamed, followed by "what do we want? 20%! When do we want it? Now". Less than a year later there was no steelworks there.
Badly run (as they always are) nationalised industries, ultra far left wing trades unions, and at least one generation of bone idle so called working class men, that is what destroyed our industries.
Sorry, but Thatcher was a necessary evil, the nastiest tasting medicine is always the best.
I agree with your assessment of the state of the workers (not universal but far too many). But UK manufacturing should have been reformed not destroyed. What we have left is a ghost of what went before and most of it is foreign-owned.
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Maggie every time for us - the best PM this country has had in our lifetime and probably ever will.
I think the consensus is that the country is in a mess and that no politicians have got all their ducks in a row.
We need to generate asset backed wealth in this country that is by adding value and not merely adding money.
Manufacturing is vital as the cornerstone of a vibrant and robust economy. It's about time due priority was allocated to the restoration of an industrial base.
We need to generate asset backed wealth in this country that is by adding value and not merely adding money.
Manufacturing is vital as the cornerstone of a vibrant and robust economy. It's about time due priority was allocated to the restoration of an industrial base.
It won't happen.
The reasons are basically simple.
Cost, the sluggishness of the planning process, the amount of subsidy given to industry re-allocating to their country, and basically the amount of interference by the various public services, here and in the EU.
We could even mention the lack of education (sciences and engineering are bottom-of-the-list subjects) and then point-out the total lack of interest in going into "industry" by the young after they leave education.
It will take decades to reverse the decline, decades we do not have. The political dislike of "workers" is another problem, even labour politicians dislike "workers". Countries like India and China realised that industry was central to a forward-loooking country and invested in both the establishment and growth of industry. They invested in the basics, such as power generation. In this country there is no such investment, and we face a future of brown-outs and power cuts in the not so distant future. The privatised power generators have little incentive to build more plant, their investments would be costly and undercut by government money used to build "renewable" power plant which means they will be required to pay more for inefficiently generated electricity and which places a low investment value on fossil-fuel generating plant.
The reasons are basically simple.
Cost, the sluggishness of the planning process, the amount of subsidy given to industry re-allocating to their country, and basically the amount of interference by the various public services, here and in the EU.
We could even mention the lack of education (sciences and engineering are bottom-of-the-list subjects) and then point-out the total lack of interest in going into "industry" by the young after they leave education.
It will take decades to reverse the decline, decades we do not have. The political dislike of "workers" is another problem, even labour politicians dislike "workers". Countries like India and China realised that industry was central to a forward-loooking country and invested in both the establishment and growth of industry. They invested in the basics, such as power generation. In this country there is no such investment, and we face a future of brown-outs and power cuts in the not so distant future. The privatised power generators have little incentive to build more plant, their investments would be costly and undercut by government money used to build "renewable" power plant which means they will be required to pay more for inefficiently generated electricity and which places a low investment value on fossil-fuel generating plant.
Quote by foxylady2209
I am just about old enough to have some experience of the workplace under "old" Labour. I was sent on work experience to a steelworks in North Lincolnshire. What I will never forget is that men were taking it in turns to work or sleep, clocking in and then buggering off down the pub for a few hours, shift supervisors were getting paid to look the other way, no wonder it was expensive to make steel here. Not long after that I saw the self same bone idle buggers march past my school on strike. "Maggie Magie Maggie, out out out" they screamed, followed by "what do we want? 20%! When do we want it? Now". Less than a year later there was no steelworks there.
Badly run (as they always are) nationalised industries, ultra far left wing trades unions, and at least one generation of bone idle so called working class men, that is what destroyed our industries.
Sorry, but Thatcher was a necessary evil, the nastiest tasting medicine is always the best.
I agree with your assessment of the state of the workers (not universal but far too many). But UK manufacturing should have been reformed not destroyed. What we have left is a ghost of what went before and most of it is foreign-owned.
Sometimes, you just have knock everything down and rebuild it to make it better than it ever was before.
I believe Thatcher had a plan, a long term strategy to rebuild the manufacturing base but with better foundations.
Regrettably, this never came to fruition as the night of the long knives drew closer (with the Tory Mandarins losing faith in - perhaps not even understanding the plot) and Major - a product of the Service/Banking industry sector - was able to get a foothold.
Who knows. It will probably keep the academics and theorists going for years!
But one thing does seem certain in this uncertain world; Japan France and Germany - key manufacturing bases - have had the ability to shake down and get things moving again far more quickly. Was this the clue?
Germany is surprising, given the fact their economy was dealt a severe blow after subsuming the eastern bloc issues following the fall of the Berlin Wall.
France is another interesting case. Protecting their manufacturing base may be regarded as against the principles of the EU, but le rank and file Français are not really good Europeans anyway (they still prefer the Franc to the Euro 10 years on!) and so don't give a shit what anyone else might think.
Gordon Brown thumped the table claiming "British Jobs For British People" - a clear protectionism message - and then outsourced Government jobs to India. He just doesn't do what he says and with a pointless mantra-chanting self-serving idiot at the head of the British Government, is it any wonder that people have little faith in the UK economy? (does the UK have an economy any more?)
Maggy was a reactionary PM. When something happened she dealt with it. She did something!
Blair, just tried to out do Maggy. Longer in number 10, no matter how many lies he told. More wars than Maggy, no matter how many laws he broke, how many lies, no matter how many unnecessary deaths.
Brown is a nothing, a failing bull in a china shop.
Blair, just tried to out do Maggy. Longer in number 10, no matter how many lies he told. More wars than Maggy, no matter how many laws he broke, how many lies, no matter how many unnecessary deaths.
Brown is a nothing, a failing bull in a china shop.
Yes: she did lots of things.
She made a lot of her friends very rich, she tried to close the unions (and failed, but in so doing she enabled them to become much better than they were).
She started the mantra that "there is no such thing as society" (actually from an article in womens mag):
But then, since government is in the biz of not allowing people to do anything for themselves (since the year dot) her comments were a bit strange. But who cares anyway ?
Sorry, but if you insist on building a low-wage economy based on service industries you then have some sort of obligation to either keep prices low or provide some services at subsidised prices.
Now we have a no-industry economy soon to become a no-economy economy.
I have nothing personally against M Thatcher. She enacted legislation to "control" unions that made the unions do some serious thinking, and then put into effect changes that enhanced their effectiveness to provide service/s to their members. But she never indulged in thinking for the future, beyond that of selling the utilities to the most preferred bidder. Which is now coming back to haunt us. Wait until the government realises that the privatised power generation industry is not going to invest billions in new capacity without generous cash hand-outs.
She made a lot of her friends very rich, she tried to close the unions (and failed, but in so doing she enabled them to become much better than they were).
She started the mantra that "there is no such thing as society" (actually from an article in womens mag):
I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation
But then, since government is in the biz of not allowing people to do anything for themselves (since the year dot) her comments were a bit strange. But who cares anyway ?
Sorry, but if you insist on building a low-wage economy based on service industries you then have some sort of obligation to either keep prices low or provide some services at subsidised prices.
Now we have a no-industry economy soon to become a no-economy economy.
I have nothing personally against M Thatcher. She enacted legislation to "control" unions that made the unions do some serious thinking, and then put into effect changes that enhanced their effectiveness to provide service/s to their members. But she never indulged in thinking for the future, beyond that of selling the utilities to the most preferred bidder. Which is now coming back to haunt us. Wait until the government realises that the privatised power generation industry is not going to invest billions in new capacity without generous cash hand-outs.
there would be absolutely no difference in policy. politicians do not decide or control economic policy. not since 1979 thatcher/reagan deregulation followed by all since. the city of london and wall street call all the shots. they own all the lapdogs in parliment and congress and are happy to keep them on their gravy train. expect bankers to pay themselves massive bonuses from your tax and your childrens taxation bail outs, from the balls up they created, and expect your politicians to cut social benefit's, close schools and hospitals on behalf of their masters. if you want to discuss compound interest, fractional reserve lending, cdo's/derivitives etc, feel free but dont fall for the left right smokescreen.
Years ago when I lived in a household where all had lost their jobs because of Tory policy, we used to have a competition. A child's sucker gun was left near the tv and when ever the blessed Margaret appeared we used to take pot shots at the screen to see who could get her in between the eyes.
Party political broadcasts became a great social occasion for us.
Party political broadcasts became a great social occasion for us.
Quote by JTS
Yes: she did lots of things.
She made a lot of her friends very rich, she tried to close the unions (and failed, but in so doing she enabled them to become much better than they were).
She started the mantra that "there is no such thing as society" (actually from an article in womens mag):I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation
But then, since government is in the biz of not allowing people to do anything for themselves (since the year dot) her comments were a bit strange. But who cares anyway ?
Sorry, but if you insist on building a low-wage economy based on service industries you then have some sort of obligation to either keep prices low or provide some services at subsidised prices.
Now we have a no-industry economy soon to become a no-economy economy.
I have nothing personally against M Thatcher. She enacted legislation to "control" unions that made the unions do some serious thinking, and then put into effect changes that enhanced their effectiveness to provide service/s to their members. But she never indulged in thinking for the future, beyond that of selling the utilities to the most preferred bidder. Which is now coming back to haunt us. Wait until the government realises that the privatised power generation industry is not going to invest billions in new capacity without generous cash hand-outs.
Let us ask "Why were the National Utilities sold off?"
In part because Britain was bankrupt. The labour government left an advanced economy in debt to the world bank. A bank set up to loan money to 'banana republics'.
...and today Britain is once again it debt, the largest peacetime debt ever!
what knid of reflection of the facts of recent history is this ? the incoming conservative government led by margerat thatcher, sold off all the public utilities, paid for by tax and local authority rate payers and therefore owned by the public, to their friends in the city, some of the public also got sucked in, ON THE CHEAP, maintained them as monopolies, financed by leveraged loans that cannot be paid back without further tax payer bail out. there is nothing gratuituous about capital. they privatise profits and socialise losses. i say again. ALL politicians are owned by and serve capital. if an honest caring, unswervable in the peoples interests politician could rise up and the people disregarded all the slanders in the capital owned media that would be levelled against them, they would be found dead in the woods. and thats democracy. the cuts that "new" labour or a "new" conservative government will carry out against the people of this country will make margret thacher seem like "the pussy" maiden not iron
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what he said
Quote by gulsonroad30664..and sadly, they will now have to make cuts. about 10% across the MOD and other parts of the civil service. At a time when we are at war.
... they would be found dead in the woods. and thats democracy. the cuts that "new" labour or a "new" conservative government will carry out against the people of this country will make margret thacher seem like "the pussy" maiden not iron
