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My opinion of the Armed Forces
I disagree a bit flower.
Yeah we have pointless conflicts based on spurious objectives.
But every military chap I know, and I know a fair few of various ranks, likes to get stuck into johnny foreigner and that is part of the reason so many of em get slaughtered in these pointless conflicts.
Vietnam was the first example of a war that simply couldnt be won by trying to kill the foreigners. Our current conflicts are yet more. Its about time we started to learn some lessons and our military started to revise their strategic thinking and the values they instil in their personnel.
Yeah we have pointless conflicts based on spurious objectives.
But every military chap I know, and I know a fair few of various ranks, likes to get stuck into johnny foreigner and that is part of the reason so many of em get slaughtered in these pointless conflicts.
Vietnam was the first example of a war that simply couldnt be won by trying to kill the foreigners. Our current conflicts are yet more. Its about time we started to learn some lessons and our military started to revise their strategic thinking and the values they instil in their personnel.
Quote by benrums0n
I disagree a bit flower.
Yeah we have pointless conflicts based on spurious objectives.
But every military chap I know, and I know a fair few of various ranks, likes to get stuck into johnny foreigner and that is part of the reason so many of em get slaughtered in these pointless conflicts.
Vietnam was the first example of a war that simply couldnt be won by trying to kill the foreigners. Our current conflicts are yet more. Its about time we started to learn some lessons and our military started to revise their strategic thinking and the values they instil in their personnel.
Are you saying that they are being slaughtered due to their own recklessness and being gung-ho? I'm sure most trained soldiers are itching to experience real combat but again I'm sure they are trained not to be reckless.
I think if you look into the stats of the poor buggers who are dying in Afghanistan, you will find that the majority are being killed in no small part due to the inadequacies of their equipment, their vehicles not being able to withstand the explosions of the IED's.
Sexpert
Quote by benrums0n
Its about time we started to learn some lessons and our military started to revise their strategic thinking and the values they instil in their personnel.
Sorry, but that is just utter rubbish!
The GOVERNMENT have to revise the strategic thinking.
The GOVERNMENT need to set realistic end states and objectives. Only then can the military use appropriate strategy to achieve the stated objectives.
That solution might be fast air, lots of JDAMs dropped on johnny foreigner or it might be medical supplies to villages and building schools.
But until the GOVERNMENT sets out a realistic endstate, the military will keep boots on the ground, and a war footing attitude and will soldier on accordingly.
As for the getting slaughtered bit, IEDs are the price we pay for both keeping a footprint on the ground, and beating the Taliban in every combat engagement they have ever been in. The Taliban know they can't out fight us, so they resort to guerilla tactics. That's just the nature of the beast, and has nothing to do with our military's "attitude or values!"
And no equipment improvement can stop that.
Yes most squaddies want to get stuck in. We would be a cr@p army if we didn't. It would be like a fireman training for years to put out fires, and not ever wanting to put one out for real. We want to do our job, and most want to do it well, with professionalism and pride. As far as I am concerned they are the values and attitudes I have been instilled with, and if they offend you, well, that's your right.
But like all rights in this country, they were paid for by a military carrying out the orders of the GOVERNMENT of the day, under the belief that they were just and legal.
Going back to your comment I have quoted:
Take a visit to Selly Oak Hosital, or Wootton Bassit and repeat you views. I'm sure you would find one or two people who would love to discuss "their values" with you!
Quote by Suffolk-cpl
Its about time we started to learn some lessons and our military started to revise their strategic thinking and the values they instil in their personnel.
Sorry, but that is just utter rubbish!
The GOVERNMENT have to revise the strategic thinking.
The GOVERNMENT need to set realistic end states and objectives. Only then can the military use appropriate strategy to achieve the stated objectives.
That solution might be fast air, lots of JDAMs dropped on johnny foreigner or it might be medical supplies to villages and building schools.
But until the GOVERNMENT sets out a realistic endstate, the military will keep boots on the ground, and a war footing attitude and will soldier on accordingly.
As for the getting slaughtered bit, IEDs are the price we pay for both keeping a footprint on the ground, and beating the Taliban in every combat engagement they have ever been in. The Taliban know they can't out fight us, so they resort to guerilla tactics. That's just the nature of the beast, and has nothing to do with our military's "attitude or values!"
And no equipment improvement can stop that.
Yes most squaddies want to get stuck in. We would be a cr@p army if we didn't. It would be like a fireman training for years to put out fires, and not ever wanting to put one out for real. We want to do our job, and most want to do it well, with professionalism and pride. As far as I am concerned they are the values and attitudes I have been instilled with, and if they offend you, well, that's your right.
But like all rights in this country, they were paid for by a military carrying out the orders of the GOVERNMENT of the day, under the belief that they were just and legal.
Going back to your comment I have quoted:
Take a visit to Selly Oak Hosital, or Wootton Bassit and repeat you views. I'm sure you would find one or two people who would love to discuss "their values" with you!
I bet they would indeedy, and it would not be over tea and biscuits.
It is rather foolish to think that the activities of our armed forces are dictated by Gordon Brown or the "Governement", whatever that phrase is intended to mean. Miliatry activity on a day to day basis is far more in the hands of the senior military officers as are tactical decisions.
I still think our military cant find its arse with both hands in terms of the necessary strategic and tactical thinking to oeprate in modern war environements. If anybody can tell me what our current official goals are in Afghanistan and how these are being measured I would like to be told.
I still think our military cant find its arse with both hands in terms of the necessary strategic and tactical thinking to oeprate in modern war environements. If anybody can tell me what our current official goals are in Afghanistan and how these are being measured I would like to be told.
Quote by benrums0n
It is rather foolish to think that the activities of our armed forces are dictated by Gordon Brown or the "Governement", whatever that phrase is intended to mean. Miliatry activity on a day to day basis is far more in the hands of the senior military officers as are tactical decisions.
I still think our military cant find its arse with both hands in terms of the necessary strategic and tactical thinking to oeprate in modern war environements. If anybody can tell me what our current official goals are in Afghanistan and how these are being measured I would like to be told.
I'd tend to agree with that sentiment. GB is so ineffective, if the RAF told him that they needed to nuke Bournville because chocolate is the chief component of Al-Qaida rocket launch fuel, he'd agree to it :shock:
Margaret Thatcher on the other hand....
Sexpert
Quote by benrums0n
It is rather foolish to think that the activities of our armed forces are dictated by Gordon Brown or the "Governement", whatever that phrase is intended to mean. Miliatry activity on a day to day basis is far more in the hands of the senior military officers as are tactical decisions.
I still think our military cant find its arse with both hands in terms of the necessary strategic and tactical thinking to oeprate in modern war environements. If anybody can tell me what our current official goals are in Afghanistan and how these are being measured I would like to be told.
Point 1. You must be living on another planet if you think the military control their own destiny. This is not a Junta. Our elected officials sign up to a war, not the Chief of Staff, or any Military officer! Yes they play an important roll in offering advice and strategy, but ultimately the buck stops with the PM.
Point 2. You are entitled to think what you like about our ability to find our own arse. You are entitled to voice that opinion. That is the privilege the military, (and their inept values and lack of ability to think at a strategic level) has given you.
Until you have served however, your opinion is based on the safety of your arm chair. If you can bring any first hand experience to the party, then your opinion will be based on something tangible, and therefore more worthy of consideration.
Strategy takes place at ALL levels, not just at staff officer level. Considering our forces have won almost every fire fight in Afghanistan, the strategic implementation of the soldiers and NCOs in those firefights was successful. And if you think telling a young tom who has come back from there he is inept and doesn't know where his arse is, and you know better than him on how to win a fire fight, pm me your ward number when you regain consciousness, and i'll pay you a visit and commend you on your bravery!
Yes the day to day running for the war is being run by the military, but within Government constraints. Until the PM tells the senior staff what he want's to achieve, the military can't pursue that fully. If our main task is to provide security for an election to take place, then that is what we did. The fact that the Afghans governments are so corrupt, the election was worthless is not the military issue. Security WAS provided!
Everyone knows a political solution is the only way the war will end. But that is always the case.
After all, the GOVERNMENT (what ever that means) start wars, they declare the war status, and ultimately they end the war.
The military just carry out the messy bit in between.
I think you are foolish not to acknowledge that the military are the tool of the government. Due process. GB is in charge, and the buck stops with him!
Sexpert
Quote by flower411
Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not Essential.
Well ....I thought it was funny !!
hahahah, over twenty years serving, and I have never heard that!!!! It will get some use now. Thank you :P :P :P
Sexpert
They are all called "flower" when in female rig for their run ashore!!
:twisted:
:twisted:
ben, you are totally insulting.
I spent time in the Army.
I have no interest in the current situation in Afghanistan and am an avowed pacifist now. (and probably always have been)
I condemn totally both the publicised reasons and the (to me) obvious reasons that 'we' are there.
I, in no way, would dream of insulting any branch of our Armed forces in the way that you have done.
I certainly can't be as restrained as suffolk-cpl and I sincerely hope that you have the ignorance and temerity to vocalise your ill-thought out opinion in a place with serving military.
As much as I despise what is happening to the world at the moment and despair that people are dying at anyone's hand. I appreciate that rightly or wrongly the armed forces are essentially doing a job. I don't like their job and wish that it wasn't happening but I certainly wouldn't insult people or a profession because of my personal opinion. I wouldn't presume to question their collective ability either.
I certainly have little qualms about insulting you. Ignorant git.
I spent time in the Army.
I have no interest in the current situation in Afghanistan and am an avowed pacifist now. (and probably always have been)
I condemn totally both the publicised reasons and the (to me) obvious reasons that 'we' are there.
I, in no way, would dream of insulting any branch of our Armed forces in the way that you have done.
I certainly can't be as restrained as suffolk-cpl and I sincerely hope that you have the ignorance and temerity to vocalise your ill-thought out opinion in a place with serving military.
As much as I despise what is happening to the world at the moment and despair that people are dying at anyone's hand. I appreciate that rightly or wrongly the armed forces are essentially doing a job. I don't like their job and wish that it wasn't happening but I certainly wouldn't insult people or a profession because of my personal opinion. I wouldn't presume to question their collective ability either.
I certainly have little qualms about insulting you. Ignorant git.
Quote by benrums0n
Didnt Thatcher agree to the terrible waste of life that was the Falklands conflict on the advice of the Navy?
No, it was on the advice of Her Majesty's representative in the Protectorate
ben, if you your life is being threatened and the forces whose task it is to come to restore your right to lawful existence perish in the ensuing conflagration, that is a terrible waste of life.
Perhaps, considering your theory on such matters, it would be better for them to wait at the bottom of the road and let you perish when they should be offering much needed assistance in restoring proper order.
This is such a rare occurrence but.....for maybe the first time ever I agree with Splendid. Well nearly all of it.
It is so easy for you Benny to sit there in your armchair spouting whatever you spout against brave men who are doing a job, and a very nasty job too.
I think even for you this time you have gone a bit lower than usual with your comments. Yes we are all entitled to our opinions, but until you get off your computer chair, where it is all nice and cosy, and then venture out into that big bad world out there, then sorry you do not have a clue matey.
These are just some of the people you are insulting, and there are thousands more out there....REAL men....REAL don't sit in their armchairs, they get out and do a job.
It is so easy for you Benny to sit there in your armchair spouting whatever you spout against brave men who are doing a job, and a very nasty job too.
I think even for you this time you have gone a bit lower than usual with your comments. Yes we are all entitled to our opinions, but until you get off your computer chair, where it is all nice and cosy, and then venture out into that big bad world out there, then sorry you do not have a clue matey.
These are just some of the people you are insulting, and there are thousands more out there....REAL men....REAL don't sit in their armchairs, they get out and do a job.
military intervention/occupation of afghanistan, iraqistan, pakistan, iranistan or any other stan has nothing to do with "the war on terror" "al queada" "rag heads" "dirty rotten johnny foreigners" or the way other people live and everything to do with profit. iraq = oil and arms profit. afghanistan = oil and gas pipelines from the caspian to salt water ports and arms profit. pakistan arms profit and preventing a landline for china to gulf/oil. whats at stake are geopolitical interests. whilst british, american and nato forces casualties are high, too high a price for a tiny minorities benefit,they pale in comparison with the losses of the indigenous peoples who never attacked us unless you believe an unageing, bearded osama binliner, hidden in a cave in tora bora, planned and directed 18 saudi's to hijack 4 planes, hours after each other and hit, amoungst other's, the pentagon, while the airforce of the most powerful nation on earth, stood down. oh and i forgot, they knew it wos em cos they found the leaders passport at ground zero the next day. musta bin them iraqi rag ed's. a johnny foreigner view.
Quote by gulsonroad30664
military intervention/occupation of afghanistan, iraqistan, pakistan, iranistan or any other stan has nothing to do with "the war on terror" "al queada" "rag heads" "dirty rotten johnny foreigners" or the way other people live and everything to do with profit. iraq = oil and arms profit. afghanistan = oil and gas pipelines from the caspian to salt water ports and arms profit. pakistan arms profit and preventing a landline for china to gulf/oil. whats at stake are geopolitical interests. whilst british, american and nato forces casualties are high, too high a price for a tiny minorities benefit,they pale in comparison with the losses of the indigenous peoples who never attacked us unless you believe an unageing, bearded osama binliner, hidden in a cave in tora bora, planned and directed 18 saudi's to hijack 4 planes, hours after each other and hit, amoungst other's, the pentagon, while the airforce of the most powerful nation on earth, stood down. oh and i forgot, they knew it wos em cos they found the leaders passport at ground zero the next day. musta bin them iraqi rag ed's. a johnny foreigner view.
You're a conspiracy theorist then
STOP THE PRESS.
HOLD THE PHONE.
WHOA COWBOY.
Can the military find it's own arse with both hands?
What does it matter? It's achieved something far, far more precious.
Forget the Gaza strip.
Ignore Afganistan.
Fuck the Falklands.
:shock:
The British Army:
Bringing Splendid and Kenty together.
:giveup:
HOLD THE PHONE.
WHOA COWBOY.
Can the military find it's own arse with both hands?
What does it matter? It's achieved something far, far more precious.
Forget the Gaza strip.
Ignore Afganistan.
Fuck the Falklands.
:shock:
The British Army:
Bringing Splendid and Kenty together.
:giveup:
Quote by flower411
STOP THE PRESS.
HOLD THE PHONE.
WHOA COWBOY.
Can the military find it's own arse with both hands?
What does it matter? It's achieved something far, far more precious.
Forget the Gaza strip.
Ignore Afganistan.
Fuck the Falklands.
:shock:
The British Army:
Bringing Splendid and Kenty together.
:giveup:
Not quite !!!
He did say "nearly" all of it !!!!
There`ll be drizzled baileys for the one that spots the bit he didn`t agree with !!!
Actually I appologise.....I agree with ALL what she said.
I was in shock when I agreed with Splendid, that I obviously did not read it all properly...one of my many traits I am afraid.
What was the question again,...am not sure who to agree with here.
I live in Hereford the base of SAS and am a friend to many,well 2 incidents happened late last month that makes me wonder how heavy handed and brutal we might be...
bedsheet wearing Taliban kidnap a British journalist with his translators and guide but when confronted during a rescue mission they decide to shoot the local captives first ahhh nah nah,i smell a rat.. then after the rescue we leave the bodies of the translator at the battle thus hearts and minds out of the window
same pj's wearing,saliva spitting goons hijack 2 petrol tanks then let the locals have the content for free,what do the Americans do set the two tanks alight with 90 human beings around them,dis..fucking..gusing,aweek later a report on the investigation just gives the number of the deceased as 60 Taliban and 30 civilians,pure stupidity.
How the fuck are we to win this meaningless war if we keep behaving like this,i mean its been over 7years just what type of equipments do the Taliban buried a brave soldier here last wednesday i hope his life has not gone sjt Paul McAleese RIP
I live in Hereford the base of SAS and am a friend to many,well 2 incidents happened late last month that makes me wonder how heavy handed and brutal we might be...
bedsheet wearing Taliban kidnap a British journalist with his translators and guide but when confronted during a rescue mission they decide to shoot the local captives first ahhh nah nah,i smell a rat.. then after the rescue we leave the bodies of the translator at the battle thus hearts and minds out of the window
same pj's wearing,saliva spitting goons hijack 2 petrol tanks then let the locals have the content for free,what do the Americans do set the two tanks alight with 90 human beings around them,dis..fucking..gusing,aweek later a report on the investigation just gives the number of the deceased as 60 Taliban and 30 civilians,pure stupidity.
How the fuck are we to win this meaningless war if we keep behaving like this,i mean its been over 7years just what type of equipments do the Taliban buried a brave soldier here last wednesday i hope his life has not gone sjt Paul McAleese RIP
The situation in Afghanistan is way too serious for meally mouthed hero worhipping.
People are dying unecessarily.
The blame for this lies with the soldiers, their leaders and their leaders leaders.
Avoiding discussion of what is primarily a deeply flawed set of objectives and a seriously incompetent action plan will simply lead to more senseless deaths.
Until the military at all levels start to make noises about changing how they do things rather than demanding more soldiers and more equipment I will continue to think they are incompetent.
Risking your life voluntarily for cash does not make you a hero nor does dying as a result.
I would add that I think far more people would have far more to say about the stupidity of this conflict if we needed conscription. Even then this ridiculous mentality of "you cant knock the military they do a great job" would get in the way, just as it did in vietnam.
People are dying unecessarily.
The blame for this lies with the soldiers, their leaders and their leaders leaders.
Avoiding discussion of what is primarily a deeply flawed set of objectives and a seriously incompetent action plan will simply lead to more senseless deaths.
Until the military at all levels start to make noises about changing how they do things rather than demanding more soldiers and more equipment I will continue to think they are incompetent.
Risking your life voluntarily for cash does not make you a hero nor does dying as a result.
I would add that I think far more people would have far more to say about the stupidity of this conflict if we needed conscription. Even then this ridiculous mentality of "you cant knock the military they do a great job" would get in the way, just as it did in vietnam.
Quote by benrums0n
The situation in Afghanistan is way too serious for meally mouthed hero worhipping.
People are dying unecessarily.
The blame for this lies with the soldiers, their leaders and their leaders leaders.
Avoiding discussion of what is primarily a deeply flawed set of objectives and a seriously incompetent action plan will simply lead to more senseless deaths.
Until the military at all levels start to make noises about changing how they do things rather than demanding more soldiers and more equipment I will continue to think they are incompetent.
Risking your life voluntarily for cash does not make you a hero nor does dying as a result.
I would add that I think far more people would have far more to say about the stupidity of this conflict if we needed conscription. Even then this ridiculous mentality of "you cant knock the military they do a great job" would get in the way, just as it did in vietnam.
You'll be talking about mercenaries there then ben, not professional armed forces personnel who fight for Queen and Country...
Sexpert
Quote by splendid_
I certainly can't be as restrained as suffolk-cpl and I sincerely hope that you have the ignorance and temerity to vocalise your ill-thought out opinion in a place with serving military.
I have tried to be as understanding of differing views, and respectful of differing, even hostile opinions as possible. Tried to use reason based on knowledge rather than "opinion" to address some of Ben's thoughts. Tried hard not to to resort to the stereotype of arrogant squaddie. Tried hard, but failed. So fuck it...
Quote by benrums0n
The situation in Afghanistan is way too serious for meally mouthed hero worhipping.
The situation in Afghanistan is too serious for your ill informed shite to be worth a rat's piss!
Quote by benrums0n
People are dying unecessarily.
And many are dying necessarily
Quote by benrums0n
The blame for this lies with the soldiers, their leaders and their leaders leaders.
You are just showing you are typical mindless jerk with no concept of reality. I am not an oil worker, have never worked on the rigs or for an oil company. That is why I do not go onto forums and spout shite about how to find oil, bring it up from the ground, or have a pop at the riggers because the big oil companies are responsible for crimes against nature!
Quote by benrums0n
Avoiding discussion of what is primarily a deeply flawed set of objectives and a seriously incompetent action plan will simply lead to more senseless deaths.
Discussing anything with you will not lead to more deaths. well maybe one, I feel like throwing myself in front of a train reading some of your insulting crap!
Quote by benrums0n
Until the military at all levels start to make noises about changing how they do things rather than demanding more soldiers and more equipment I will continue to think they are incompetent.
And that is you right to think that.
Quote by benrums0n
Risking your life voluntarily for cash does not make you a hero nor does dying as a result.
Few people serve for the cash. OK, none of us would do it for free, but we don't have that mercenary attitude that say, the private sector bodyguard circuit has.
Men and women who serve are not doing it to be heroes. If their actions are seen as such by some, than that is their business. They are just professionals trying to do a job, and do it well.
Quote by benrums0n
I would add that I think far more people would have far more to say about the stupidity of this conflict if we needed conscription. Even then this ridiculous mentality of "you cant knock the military they do a great job" would get in the way, just as it did in vietnam.
I'm sure we would hear a lot about it from you! Still if we had conscription, and lived in the Junta you seem to think we live in, then we wouldn't hear a peep from you would we, cos if you did spout this shite out loud, you'd be shot.
Quote by Phuckers
We buried a brave soldier here last wednesday i hope his life has not gone sjt Paul McAleese RIP
Stand easy Paul. RIP fella
Actually Phuckers, there is a casing point. The likes of Paul's old man and the other lads do some pretty messy jobs on our behalf. The more unfortunate ones names are immortalised on the clock tower, yet their deeds will never be told. A lot of us owe our lives to these men, yet we never realise it. Even Ben!
Suffolk....Your sentiments and your words I agree with 1000% mate.
I have just watched a two parter called " wounded ". You have no doubt seen it?
For those who have not it is about two young soldiers, who were terribly injured in Afghanistan. One lost two legs and his sight, and the other lost both legs and his left arm.
I can tell you I don't ever shed a tear that's just the way I am but....I watched that programme and shed one for those guys. I was in two minds about watching it as my step son will be out there next year, and the thoughts running through my mind watching that scared the shit out of me.
Don't let peoples blinkered and ignorant attitudes get you down mate, people like Benny I am sure do it to get a reaction, because I really feel people cannot be that cruel and nasty. He spouts all the time about how precious people are, yet when it comes to our brave soldiers doing their job he says the most disgusting things possible.
He wants a reaction and he got what he wanted. I hope he is proud.
Those two brave soldiers...heroes in my book for sure are worth a thousand of some peoples ilk.
It is probably best mate to leave this thread now as to carry on serves no purpose whatsoever, the words have been spoken, the anger is there to see,and I will not let a tiny ammount of people with disgusting comments, win over me.
RIP sjt Paul McAleese RIP......from all in this house too.
I have just watched a two parter called " wounded ". You have no doubt seen it?
For those who have not it is about two young soldiers, who were terribly injured in Afghanistan. One lost two legs and his sight, and the other lost both legs and his left arm.
I can tell you I don't ever shed a tear that's just the way I am but....I watched that programme and shed one for those guys. I was in two minds about watching it as my step son will be out there next year, and the thoughts running through my mind watching that scared the shit out of me.
Don't let peoples blinkered and ignorant attitudes get you down mate, people like Benny I am sure do it to get a reaction, because I really feel people cannot be that cruel and nasty. He spouts all the time about how precious people are, yet when it comes to our brave soldiers doing their job he says the most disgusting things possible.
He wants a reaction and he got what he wanted. I hope he is proud.
Those two brave soldiers...heroes in my book for sure are worth a thousand of some peoples ilk.
It is probably best mate to leave this thread now as to carry on serves no purpose whatsoever, the words have been spoken, the anger is there to see,and I will not let a tiny ammount of people with disgusting comments, win over me.
RIP sjt Paul McAleese RIP......from all in this house too.
