Is it time we admitted that we can no longer afford parts of the Welfare State or that we should have a radical shake up of who the Welfare state has a responsibility to ?
The simple answer to the latter question would on surface be 'the people of the United Kingdom' but that isn't who it actually takes care of, who here would consider travel abroad without travel insurance, even to EU countries where your E111 card is valid and some other non EU countries where your E111 card will give you free medical benefits like Switzerland.
Should we not expect visitors to this country to pay for any and all medical treatment in cash or by a valid insurance policy ?
The basic rule for an E111 card is that you can get the same Free treatment in EU countries that you would get in the UK and pay for any treatment that you would have to pay for here, seems fair, but should we not say the same to visitors, be they tourists or migrant workers such as the Polish ?
Should that not be the rule for all Welfare Benefits, should not a Polish subject only be entitled to the benefits they would receive in Poland when working or visiting this Country ? is it fair that a Polish person (for example) is given Child Benefit when in this Country (even if thier children are still in Poland) yet would not get child benefit when they are in Poland, is it right that Child Benefit, War Pensions etc can be stopped if you spend a period living abroad, even when just holidaying abroad should the authorities wish to do so.
Some people seeking work in this Country are given job seekers allowance when here despite the fact that they would not get such payments if they were seeking work in thier own Countries.
When the NHS/Welfare State was formed, it was desperately needed and albeit that it was probably a severe financial burden to the UK it was affordable, but nowadays it has become so much more expensive, bad back then = rest, now it can be treated but at some considerable cost, the flu vaccination costs money, Hip replacement, transplant surgery, Dialysis all cost a fortune though are a wonderfull thing, but basically costs have spiralled to the extent that we really do struggle to afford them, the improvements in medical abilities are in danger of declining because of costs, we already know that sometimes less expensive drugs are prescribed by Doctors when they know better results would be achieved with more expensive treatment but directives force them to choose the cheaper option.
So is it time we followed the example of most other countries and charged for ALL medical treatments, I think so, of course payment would be from Insurance policies and a reduction in tax would pay for your policy, the contributions you make to the NHS would be used to have good medical insurance, medical insurance would cost less because of the amount of increas in the numbers paying for it, if you are below the line and don't have to pay NHS contributions via your tax because you are over the retirement age, on low income or unemployed your insurance would of course be paid for you by the state, for most people the insurance premium would be less than the tax contribution they currently pay.
The NHS would be almost directly funded by the payments made from non-uk residents insurance policies and UK residents insurance policies and if the standard of care and facilities in other Countries is anything to go by the NHS would be far better off and able to offer far better facilities and care.
In Switzerland independant doctors surgeries have equipment that some of our smaller hospitals only dream of, my ex had 10 day in intensive care in Switzerland some years ago, the bill came to just over £12,000 (paid for totally by a £120 a year insurance policy which cost that much because she was a diabetic and working in a hazardous area)
A brave and bold Political party would be needed to make the change but explained properly to the people I am sure most would see the advantages of a new system.
Join the most popular community of UK swingers now
Login
NHS
I thought the EHIC card (formerly E111) entitled you to the same treatment as the locals in other European countries. It would mean that EU nationals carrying the card would get the same free treatments that we get. Similarly we'd get free treatment in countries where their own population was entitled to free treatment, and pay for the aspects that they expect their own people to pay for. I may be wrong - I can't afford passports for my whole family, let alone the cost of foreign holidays, so we don't go abroad 
but I did used to work in a post office, and now I work for the NHS 
.
but I did used to work in a post office, and now I work for the NHS . 
Sex God
Quote by Ben_Minx
I cant read all that mids.
Have you got an executive summary?
To summarize Ben .... U.S.A.
Quote by MidsCouple24
A brave and bold Political party would be needed to make the change but explained properly to the people I am sure most would see the advantages of a new system.
Isn't that what is happening now with putting Public Health at the top of the agenda? Not just dealing with the symptoms of ill health (NHS) but dealing with the causes of ill health (public health). Perhaps Britain just lost its way and is now getting back on track
As for going the USA style, just look at their health inequalities and that is no way I would like to go.
Dave_Notts
How the once richest country in the world couldnt organise basic healthcare for its people is a mystery to me.
Friend o mine went on holiday to teh states. Had a heat attack, insurance still aint paid out cos of detail issues (The main issue being his insurance company were shit) tbh the worry is gonna finish him off.
Friend o mine went on holiday to teh states. Had a heat attack, insurance still aint paid out cos of detail issues (The main issue being his insurance company were shit) tbh the worry is gonna finish him off.
Quote by The_pretender
I thought the EHIC card (formerly E111) entitled you to the same treatment as the locals in other European countries. It would mean that EU nationals carrying the card would get the same free treatments that we get. Similarly we'd get free treatment in countries where their own population was entitled to free treatment, and pay for the aspects that they expect their own people to pay for. I may be wrong - I can't afford passports for my whole family, let alone the cost of foreign holidays, so we don't go abroad
Sadly you are quite right which is one of the areas where Brits lose out, the card does entitle you to the same free services that the host country population get, in Britain that means almost all treatment but when we travel to other countries we can be given much less because the local population is entitled to much less and pay for much more, another area where our EU representatives should be fighting for us to change the rule to one by which everyone only gets the same level of free service they would get at home, good for brits but would deter some of the foreign "treatment tourists" we get who only come here for the free service that they would have to pay for in thier own country.
As for the other comments re the USA and it's medical arrangements, I have very little respect for most of what the USA does or doesn't do for it's citizens and how that varies from State to state, I was referring more to european countries who use a predominantely "insurance" system.
Choosing the right policy is something that is down to the individual and the small print but sadly that is true of many choices we make though legislation to make such things much easier to read and clearer would help.
Sex God
thats why we have piles of dead and dying people outside our hospitals if only they had left home with their american express card aye 
Quote by Ben_Minx
How does one schedule ones emergency medical needs to coincide with a visit to the UK to make this NHS milking work?
"The EHIC card only entitles you to essential medical treatment"
According to dot gov dot uk
The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) replaced the old E111 in 2006.
Your EHIC lets you get state healthcare at a reduced cost or sometimes for free. It will cover you for treatment that is needed to allow you to continue your stay until your planned return. It also covers you for treatment of pre-existing medical conditions and for routine maternity care, as long as you're not going abroad to give birth.
The EHIC is valid in all European Economic Area (EEA) countries, including Switzerland. For more information about what is covered in each country
My planned visit to Switzerland was for 3 years and my work permit was for 1 year, EU visitors can come to the UK for very long periods of time, those coming from Countries outside the EU can put long periods visiting families on thier Visa applications and at the moment the only real requirement is that they can reasonably prove that thier family or themselves can finance thier visit and that they will not have to work in the UK, some can apply for student visas or work permits so it is possible to "milk" our health system quite easily. Sasha is from an EU Country and living permanently here in the UK, when she has needed medical treatment nobody has ever asked for any kind of documentation to prove that she is not an illegal imigrant despite her obvious eastern european accent. She has an EHIC card issued by the UK Government and has a National Insurance number but has never been asked to provide even evidence of Country of origin at the Dentist or A&E departments, she has been admitted simply because she needed medical attention, (quite rightly but my point is some should have to provide medical insurance too).
It has long been known, debated in the media and even in the house of Commons that some "visitors/tourists" entering the UK do so because they want treatment for conditions for which they will recieve better/similar treatment to that which they would get at home, but Free, I have no idea of the actual numbers taking advantage of the situation but the loophole should be stopped. A visitor from for example Nigeria or Lithuania should be treated as a legitimate visitor but there is nothing to stop us insisting that as part of the visa or visiting rights they have medical insurance as some other countries do, most countries insist that visitors have access to sufficient funds to cover thier visit why shouldnt we insist on having enough to cover medical emergencies ?
I currently have a stomach ulcer, should I get some cheap holiday medical insurance and visit Switzerland where the medical care is exempelary and go to a doctors surgery there complaining of severe stomach pain in order to get treatment, they would take care of me, they wouldnt care that I was a Brit, the insurance would pay the huge bill and thier personal taxes would not be affected, if I had medical insurance both myself and the Swiss Medical facilities would be winners and so could the UK with a simple change to our entry system.
I dont know all the answers but we have an elected government whose job it is to look at the situation and help the NHS and taxpayers of the UK.
Sex God
Are you sure it's a stomach ulcer ?? a short course of antibiotics should deal with that ... no need for overseas travel
Sex God
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Are you sure it's a stomach ulcer ?? a short course of antibiotics should deal with that ... no need for overseas travel
sorry just cleaned the link for ya
Having lived in the USA for 20 years and recently returned to the UK, the idea of imposing a U.S. system here is morally abhorant to me.
Health care for profit (insurance companies and medical providers) drives costs up, not down. No job, no healthcare. Private healthcare ranges from $500 to $2,000 per month for an individual. $500 per month is for very basic coverage for emergency situations, buts excludes chemotherapy if you get cancer and lots of other essential services including ambulances.
I have friends that have been made redundant since 2008 and are in debt to pay for their insurance premium, $3,000 per year is a lot when you have no income.
Government statistics (US Congress) report that 18,000 people per year die purely for lack of healthcare. That's equivalent of six 9/11 events each year.
Anyone faced with a critical illness or injury from accident without healthcare is faced with financial devastation - I have friends that have been directly affected.
My father-in-law spent a week in intensive care before he died, and my mother-in-law got a bill for $100,000 and that did not include the doctors fees, that was just for the stay, supplies and nursing care. The NHS hospitals here would put the ward he was on to shame - it was no 5 star room like you see on TV.
My brother-in-law went to the Emergency Room (A&E) with stomach pains, waited four hours, saw a doctor for 5 minutes who sent him home with some antacid medication, and he got a bill for $4,000.
For myself, I was denied two operations by my insurer and medication because it was too expensive and I had a good job with good coverage. When I came back to the UK, I got my medication immediately from the NHS and had both my operations sorted.
The NHS is the jewel in the British crown. No matter what it costs it needs to be funded, and if that means higher taxes, etc, then so be it.
People in the U.S. live in fear of losing their job/healthcare and losing their assets and homes as a result.
U.S. healthcare is twice the cost (per capita) of U.K. healthcare with substainially poorer results. Average life span in the U.S. is ten years less than Europe.
Health care for profit (insurance companies and medical providers) drives costs up, not down. No job, no healthcare. Private healthcare ranges from $500 to $2,000 per month for an individual. $500 per month is for very basic coverage for emergency situations, buts excludes chemotherapy if you get cancer and lots of other essential services including ambulances.
I have friends that have been made redundant since 2008 and are in debt to pay for their insurance premium, $3,000 per year is a lot when you have no income.
Government statistics (US Congress) report that 18,000 people per year die purely for lack of healthcare. That's equivalent of six 9/11 events each year.
Anyone faced with a critical illness or injury from accident without healthcare is faced with financial devastation - I have friends that have been directly affected.
My father-in-law spent a week in intensive care before he died, and my mother-in-law got a bill for $100,000 and that did not include the doctors fees, that was just for the stay, supplies and nursing care. The NHS hospitals here would put the ward he was on to shame - it was no 5 star room like you see on TV.
My brother-in-law went to the Emergency Room (A&E) with stomach pains, waited four hours, saw a doctor for 5 minutes who sent him home with some antacid medication, and he got a bill for $4,000.
For myself, I was denied two operations by my insurer and medication because it was too expensive and I had a good job with good coverage. When I came back to the UK, I got my medication immediately from the NHS and had both my operations sorted.
The NHS is the jewel in the British crown. No matter what it costs it needs to be funded, and if that means higher taxes, etc, then so be it.
People in the U.S. live in fear of losing their job/healthcare and losing their assets and homes as a result.
U.S. healthcare is twice the cost (per capita) of U.K. healthcare with substainially poorer results. Average life span in the U.S. is ten years less than Europe.
Quote by Hertsbimwm
U.S. healthcare is twice the cost (per capita) of U.K. healthcare with substainially poorer results. Average life span in the U.S. is ten years less than Europe.
Had to check that stat, we have family in the US and the difference is about 3 years not 10
Quote by Hertsbimwm
For myself, I was denied two operations by my insurer and medication because it was too expensive and I had a good job with good coverage. When I came back to the UK, I got my medication immediately from the NHS and had both my operations sorted.
It's not insurace if it's not covered, all insurers crawl over policies when it comes to making a claim, it's not specific to medical insurance.
Quote by Hertsbimwm
The NHS is the jewel in the British crown. No matter what it costs it needs to be funded, and if that means higher taxes, etc, then so be it.
At any cost? I agree it needs to be funded and agree it's a jewel' (sorta) but it's also a seriously outdated method of helping the sick.
*looking all serious like* The business model is flawed, it doesnt work any more, a radical rethink is required and preferably not by a Govt.
Doctors prescribe medicine like its going out of fashion, always a pill for the cure, we don't have flu/colds any more, it's 'asian flu' or 'bird flu' or respiratory disease or chronic cough or whatever. I make a point of not telling my doc what I think is wrong with me cos if you do they'll go along with it and prescribe accordingly.
Pharmaceutical companies see the UK as a goldmine, develop a medicine, bring it to market and then watch the money come rolling in when the UK licenses it and the NHS starts paying well above the odds for it, just nice that.
I have a couple of mates that work for Glaxo as reps, they are on 50+k a year with a company car and with a budget (last time we spoke) of 35k to spend on the car, they are always toffing it up at 'conventions' or soiress abroad at 'meetings' Glaxo pay them but in reality they're paid by the NHS.., they drive, the sit and talk to a doctor about the latest product, give them (docs and their surgeries) loads of freebies to throw about the surgery and off they tootle, nice work if you can get it, my mates are doing really well, good luck to them but sometimes I do wonder as to whose expense they're doing so well at ( I did have this discussion wiv em *smiling*)
The above is just one small part of the NHS dilemma of what to do about it, it's out of control (the NHS) and would probably take a generation to bring it back to it's former glory and ok so it's still a jewel, but a bit tarnished is it.
Thats just what i was going to post Toots, its in no small way down to the pharmaceutical companies that bleed and drain the NHS with its outrageously inflated prices it charges for its drugs.
You never see GlaxoSmithKline or AstraZeneca employees scraping by.
Changing the pharmaceutical bosses ransome demand culture of "you need it to save lives so we`ll charge what the fook we like".will help some what.
You never see GlaxoSmithKline or AstraZeneca employees scraping by.
Changing the pharmaceutical bosses ransome demand culture of "you need it to save lives so we`ll charge what the fook we like".will help some what.
Thats just what i was going to post Toots, its in no small way down to the pharmaceutical companies that bleed and drain the NHS with its outrageously inflated prices it charges for its drugs.
You never see GlaxoSmithKline or AstraZeneca employees scraping by.
Changing the pharmaceutical bosses ransome demand culture of "you need it to save lives so we`ll charge what the fook we like".will help some what.
You never see GlaxoSmithKline or AstraZeneca employees scraping by.
Changing the pharmaceutical bosses ransome demand culture of "you need it to save lives so we`ll charge what the fook we like".will help some what.
Warming the Bed
The Tory government have proposed a shake up of the NHS, the 'Health and Social Care bill' which was passed earlier this year argues in favor of a privatized NHS. This is a horrific thing for the UK, and will ultimately result in a US style system. It highlights how we we do not live in a democratic country and the party in power can simply make changes that will have serious affects on our lives without most of the country even knowing about it. There were lost of demonstrations against this act, yet it has gone completely unreported by the UK press. Despite the fact the NHS has many flaws it is a system that we should be proud of and fight to keep
Forum Virgin
The reason why we cant afford anything is because we moved from socialism to capitalism. Capitalism runs the country at a loss.
Margaret Thatcher got in power with the slogan 'Labour isnt working unemployed'. She had a trade and budget surplus. After sweeping socialism under the carpet there were 3m unemployed and a trade and budget deficit.
Getting rid of the NHS only further destroys the disposable income of the public just like the tuition fees will do. Hence less spending in the economy and hence more debt.
Margaret Thatcher got in power with the slogan 'Labour isnt working unemployed'. She had a trade and budget surplus. After sweeping socialism under the carpet there were 3m unemployed and a trade and budget deficit.
Getting rid of the NHS only further destroys the disposable income of the public just like the tuition fees will do. Hence less spending in the economy and hence more debt.
Warming the Bed
Quote by Ben_Minx
How does one schedule ones emergency medical needs to coincide with a visit to the UK to make this NHS milking work?
"The EHIC card only entitles you to essential medical treatment"
When heavily pregnant and told you need a ceasarian you just jump on a plane to Manchester.
Health tourists cost the NHS countless millions a year.
Warming the Bed
Quote by Ellis_Dee
The reason why we cant afford anything is because we moved from socialism to capitalism. Capitalism runs the country at a loss.
Margaret Thatcher got in power with the slogan 'Labour isnt working unemployed'. She had a trade and budget surplus. After sweeping socialism under the carpet there were 3m unemployed and a trade and budget deficit.
Getting rid of the NHS only further destroys the disposable income of the public just like the tuition fees will do. Hence less spending in the economy and hence more debt.
There has been no capitalism in the UK for well over a hundred years. In capitalism if your business is bust you do not get a big fat handout from the taxpayer. Whatever we have now it certainly is not capitalism.
To have written the above I take it you are too young to remember the 1970's. The free market economy has risen the living standards of more people higher in the last 50 years than ever before in all of human history. The very thing you used to post on this website is down soley to the free market system.
Socialist economics failed and failed miserably, any glance at the fall of the Eastern Bloc, the USSR and Mao's China demonstrates that fact.
The sole reason there are tuition fees is that FAR FAR FAR more people are going to university it has feck all to do with anything else. We should go back to the system where only the best and brightest got a degree but I wager you would be against that.
Warming the Bed
Quote by Jboss
The Tory government have proposed a shake up of the NHS, the 'Health and Social Care bill' which was passed earlier this year argues in favor of a privatized NHS. This is a horrific thing for the UK, and will ultimately result in a US style system. It highlights how we we do not live in a democratic country and the party in power can simply make changes that will have serious affects on our lives without most of the country even knowing about it. There were lost of demonstrations against this act, yet it has gone completely unreported by the UK press. Despite the fact the NHS has many flaws it is a system that we should be proud of and fight to keep
Sorry but that is just total and utter nonsense. Labour started the "privatising" and the current government is not Tory. There are hundreds of different systems of healthcare in the world and quite a number of them are better than the NHS.
It always baffles me how those defending the NHS in such an obvious political manner think people in say Germany or France or Canada or Australia or Japan or any number of other nations get healthcare? There are plenty of systems we could copy that are better than the US and UK systems.
"The USA has an expensive insurance based system" has no bearing at all on a debate about the NHS. And one of the main reasons why the US system is so expensive is because the Federal State does not allow competition between the different states insurance companies, if they did allow it costs would plummet.
The reason that FAR FAR FAR more people are going to university has much more to do with massaging the youth unemployment figures than it has to do with the general intelligence of the youth today.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with elitism and countries like France are still unashamedly so.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with elitism and countries like France are still unashamedly so.
