No 'luxuries'

20 Dec 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
Patently untrue. Life chances are not the same for everyone, whether we're talking the impact of child poverty, quality of schooling available in a particular area ( hence middle class parents buying property within the catchment area of the best schools locally driving up prices ), individual talent, cultural / class influences ( see Paul Willis, Learning To Labour ), discrimination / lower expectation of those within a certain a demographic, psychological / emotional damage at a young age, whatever. If life chances were all the same Govt wouldn't spend so much time trying to address the inequalities that impact upon them, would they?

Just have to agree to disagree Neil. I can only comment on my personal experiences of being brought up and living in the NW. I had normal parents who had normal jobs and I went to State schools (albeit I passed my 11+ and went to a Grammar School). The people who I thought were really clever have gone on to be scientists and one guy works at NASA, others who spent their time dicking around I could tell you now which pub they will be in tonight and what they will be moaning about. We were all the same at one point - but our choices determined how we would ultimately end up.
As a society I think we are far too quick to make excuses for people who make bad choices in life and really - you have listed them above. Just look at that list Neil and really they could equally be listed as excuses, as opposed reasons.
In my opinion, this current economic crisis is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better and this country will not be able to afford the growing social and pension costs as employment decreases and the number of people not working increases (either through being at a pensionable age or unemployed or unemployable). It is so easy to blame the incumbent government (just like every country in Europe is doing). Unfortunately, it is nothing to do with individual governments and everything to do with the worldwide economic correction. This correction is reducing the significance of Western World PLC whilst it tries to maintain a huge non working population in the manner to which it has become accustomed.

20 Dec 2012

Quote by Too Hot
and I went to State schools (albeit I passed my 11+ and went to a Grammar School)

For those who do not know what a Grammar school is.
I think you had a much better academic start than most Too Hot. You certainly had a far better start that an inner London kid who goes to the local school would have had.
You passed an exam at 10 that afforded you the choice of going to a much better school than you would otherwise have gone too.
But then I would not expect you to agree to that statement, but it is a fact. So you did have a better start to your secondary education than most children do. You only have to look at the GCSE or A level grades passed when comparing Grammar schools to the other local secondary schools.
I have looked at four Grammar schools in my area and then compared the exam results of both schools from two years ago. The results are strangely different in that the Grammar schools results had a much higher pass rate of A* and A grades, in fact over 50% higher than the highest secondary pass rate.

20 Dec 2012

I have some sympathies with both sides of this storey and can see both points of view. However, I feel toohot makes some valid and accurate points. We must all know those from under privileged areas who have achieved and those from very privileged backgrounds who have thrown there lives away.
Its all about choices to some extent, toohot decided to apply himself to pass an exam that gave him a better chance in life, other decided not to....
My only problem, which I have no idea how to solve is this; If state aid is made more difficult for these who are labeled the scroungers, and these people happen to be parents, how does this effect there children, could we be punishing children for there parents choices?

20 Dec 2012

Its all about choices to some extent, toohot decided to apply himself to pass an exam that gave him a better chance in life, other decided not to....

No, this is nonsense Blue, not all others were able to pass it whether they applied themselves or not. The whole point of it was to select those most academically gifted and steer a tiny fraction of the most able ( < 5% I think ) into a completely different educational experience to that offered those who failed, with much greater opportunities for further academic study later in life. Some would have failed no matter how they applied themselves or how much extra tuition they had because they were simply not gifted enough, that was the whole bloody point! The education offered in what were secondary moderns and later comprehensives was vastly different as anyone who's been through them will tell you.

20 Dec 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
Its all about choices to some extent, toohot decided to apply himself to pass an exam that gave him a better chance in life, other decided not to....

No, this is nonsense Blue, not all others were able to pass it whether they applied themselves or not. The whole point of it was to select those most academically gifted and steer a tiny fraction of the most able ( < 5% I think ) into a completely different educational experience to that offered those who failed, with much greater opportunities for further academic study later in life. Some would have failed no matter how they applied themselves or how much extra tuition they had because they were simply not gifted enough, that was the whole bloody point! The education offered in what were secondary moderns and later comprehensives was vastly different as anyone who's been through them will tell you.
I don't agree, those that could not pass this exam do not have to end up on the scrap heap, they could go on to excel in some field they can turn there hand too, if they so desired and wanted to.
I left school with not one exam result behind me, ok, I am not rich. but have not ended on the scrap heap either, and the important frame of mind, barring illness, nor shall I ever end up there!

20 Dec 2012

Are we measuring success in money again?
There are 7 people who call me dad.
Their academic abilities range from Oxford Graduate to one grade D GCSE in IT. Their choices have ranged from the best performing state schools, to the worst and include private specialist schools.
They are all reasonably happy living the lives they have chosen from the opportunities available to them.
I think that's the most important thing tbh.
Thankfully none of them look down their noses at others who have different opportunities or make different choices.

20 Dec 2012

Quote by Ben_Minx
Are we measuring success in money again?
There are 7 people who call me dad.
Their academic abilities range from Oxford Graduate to one grade D GCSE in IT. Their choices have ranged from the best performing state schools, to the worst and include private specialist schools.
They are all reasonably happy living the lives they have chosen from the opportunities available to them.
I think that's the most important thing tbh.
Thankfully none of them look down their noses at others who have different opportunities or make different choices.

No definitely not, looks like the only person judging other here is you dunno

20 Dec 2012

I got the impression "scrap heap" was a monetary measure.
If it isn't what is the measure?

20 Dec 2012

Neil & Star - I am talking about my fellow High (Grammar) school pupils - not the kids I was at junior school with. Albeit a number of them did subsequently come into the Grammar School 6th Form some years down the road.
I can only comment on the people who were around me from the age of 14/15/16 when the pressure was on and how some people knuckled down with determination and others dicked around. What became clear to me then was not about education or qualifications but about how important peoples attitudes are to the choices and decisions that they make in life and how important the consequences of good and bad decision making turn out to be in later life.
Star - If you are saying that your local Grammar Schools have a more than 50% better success rate than the comprehensive why would you argue against the expansion of Grammar Schools? Are we so socially ignorant that we would rather dumb down our education to the lowest level rather than strive for the highest? What a strange society we have become if we are prepared to accept such a failure of the education system.

20 Dec 2012

Quote by Ben_Minx
I got the impression "scrap heap" was a monetary measure.
If it isn't what is the measure?

We are talking about the country being able to afford its non working population. I am wondering if at least some of the non working population might be in that position as a consequence of having a crap attitude and consequently making piss poor decisions.

20 Dec 2012

Quote by Ben_Minx
I got the impression "scrap heap" was a monetary measure.
If it isn't what is the measure?

dont know, never been there, as stated

20 Dec 2012

Quote by Too Hot
I got the impression "scrap heap" was a monetary measure.
If it isn't what is the measure?

We are talking about the country being able to afford its non working population. I am wondering if at least some of the non working population might be in that position as a consequence of having a crap attitude and consequently making piss poor decisions.
Isn't this focus on the "idle masses" a game politicians play to keep the righteous workers happy? I dont like joining in with politicians games.