Quote by Lizaleanrob
just in case you may be interested
i read this last year you may or may not find it worth a read it does have some interesting Facts
seems like a lot of truths there Rob. :notes:
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No to Legalising Drugs But.......
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Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
Portugal has taken a step away from mainstream thinking and it has been a success. That is to be welcomed.
As far as I recall few here wanted any changes at all in this country. The Portugese trial has shown dramatic improvements over a ten year term.
A different country with different views and much less of a drug problem than anywhere else in Europe. In fact so much less of a problem that I struggle to find any figures about this country at all. Would you not agree that if you are treating far fewer drug addicts that the problem is easier than if you were dealing with a much higher proportion?
Of course I don't agree because it is irrelevant. It would be like saying that you can't have a law in Birmingham that will work the same in Tiverton because there are more people in Birmingham. This is about imaginatively looking at a problem that existed and in many cases got worse over the last 40-50 years. Indeed this report - - suggests that drug use/addiction and associated problems are proportionate to the extremes of enforcement penalties - ie more severe and aggressive the lawes = the greater the drug problem
Quote by Too Hot
Star - The comparison between Portugal and the UK is very vaid because the trial is not about dealing with just one country it is about taking on a pre-conceived state of mind. Portugal has halved its problem - a 10% success rate in the UK would be a success, let alone a 50% improvement.
I am unconvinced about a success rate of that proportion in the UK. The drug problem for many in the UK is also a state of mind. I am not convinced about pre-conceived ideas where drugs are concerned.
You appear to have very pre-conceived ideas yourself and seemingly not open to an alternative - albeit controversial view.
Quote by Too Hot
Giving drug users of all persuasions the ability to get a pure fix, with clean needles in an environment that they can be comfortable in is about a million timers better than what we have at the moment. Same applies for the more recreational type drugs - a pure product that can be measured accurately and no poisonous impurities.
I admire your way of thinking too hot and you may well be right on parts, but it is never going to happen in this country in my lifetime. I still believe that if drugs were made even more easily available I believe the future drug addicts will increase as a percentage from what they are now, as they will see drugs readily on our high streets and a much more positive way of thinking towards drugs. Making drugs available like what you propose I believe will only glamorise it more than it currently is.
Negotiations start with both parties have polar views and a middle ground is reached. I too don't see much change in my lifetime but the older I get the more absurd the current situation seems to be. The report released last week was six years in the making and created by a team of independant social workers, scientists and former police offers. They unanimously agreed that the current system of classification of recreational drugs was a waste of time and money. That was the last in a long line of many reports including the sacking of the top Drugs Policy Scientist who said that more people take Ecstacy than ride horses yet more people are killed in horse riding accidents than by ecstacy. Therefore horse riding is more dangerous than ecstacy. There must come a time when money stops being wasted and drug addicts and users can be taken away from the criminal underworld.
Quote by Too Hot
As I said in my original post - there could likely be unforeseen problems but anything has to be better than the current situation.
I do not believe that this current situation is the worse it can be. I also do not prescribe to the give drugs away, from the taxpayers of this country. I am in no way convinced that the view you take is the right view, and I believe that drugs will remain as they are especially hard drugs and I think that is the right way at this moment in time.
Then you need to be resigned to the continuing pointless criminalisation of hundreds of thousands of people who take recreational drugs and the undermining of the lesser number of real problem cases of addicted Heroin and Opiate addicts. This pointless criminalisation will continue to waste Billions of pounds every year.
Sex God
where did Neils post go 
Quote by flower411
I am unconvinced about a success rate of that proportion in the UK. The drug problem for many in the UK is also a state of mind. I am not convinced about pre-conceived ideas where drugs are concerned.
Yet you base your whole argument on your own preconceived ideas and refuse to take on board all evidence to contrary !
My argument chum or indeed my opinion does not matter a single toss,
Blimey !!!
Something we agree on .
:rotflmao:Your obviously looking to be controversial here. Is that why you were excluded from the site on more than a single occasion? I am suprised they lifted it to be honest as you obviously from your past posts, love squaring up for a ruck on here. I shall leave you to your own devices.
Maybe you should have a forum all to yourself, then you can agree with yourself as well over a bottle or three of wine.
Sex God
Quote by Lizaleanrob
So 300,000 from a population of 55,000,000 is about 0.5% of the population
In Portugal they had about 100,000 from a population of 10,000,000 which is 1% of the population.
Strewth - so Portugals hard drug problem was twice as bad as Englands - Shhh Don't tell Star......
Quote by Too Hot
Then you need to be resigned to the continuing pointless criminalisation of hundreds of thousands of people who take recreational drugs and the undermining of the lesser number of real problem cases of addicted Heroin and Opiate addicts. This pointless criminalisation will continue to waste Billions of pounds every year.
I think that a lot of hard drug users and addicts start their drug use from a bad background, which started from birth. Bad housing, no proper schooling, dreadful parents/parent,no job etc.
Maybe we should target those areas of deprivation first, as a root cause of drug abuse at the start?
Sex God
In fact so much less of a problem that I struggle to find any figures about this country at all.
How do you work this out if you've not got the figures Star? You're not just . . . gasp . . . guessing are you? One might begin to think you don't know what you're on about son?
'That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence' ~ Christopher Hitchens
Portugal was getting around 400 deaths a year according to this:
UK stats on drug related deaths, all classes, 2652 for 2011:
Some of those deaths relate to legal prescription drugs, but there's a stat on table 1 for drug misuse which might be more properly relevant here of around 1600 deaths for 2011. I'm gonna use that one. From that we can probably extrapolate that Portugal has about a quarter as many problem drug users as us, assuming risky behaviours in both populations are roughly similar.
Portugal has seen a fall of over 25% in drug related deaths, down from 400 to 290. Again extrapolating from that to UK population we could expect something like a potential fall of 400+ deaths a year. I don't know about anyone else but I would say each of those lives is valuable beyond measure and worth every effort to save.
Quote by Too Hot
Quote by Too Hot
So 300,000 from a population of 55,000,000 is about 0.5% of the population
In Portugal they had about 100,000 from a population of 10,000,000 which is 1% of the population.
The population of Portugal on October 21st 2012 is approximately 13,212,692
Quote by Too Hot
Strewth - so Portugals hard drug problem was twice as bad as Englands - Shhh Don't tell Star......
:laughabove::laughabove:
Sex God
Quote by Lizaleanrob
where did Neils post go
Sorry Rob, realised I'd misread the stats, though the general thrust was right. Needed to do some more checking and an edit before someone caught it and ripped my argument to shreds on the basis of a simple clerical error transcribing the numbers! ;)
Quote by neilinleeds
In fact so much less of a problem that I struggle to find any figures about this country at all.
Quote by neilinleeds
How do you work this out if you've not got the figures Star? You're not just . . . gasp . . . guessing are you? One might begin to think you don't know what you're on about son?
I did struggle Neil and I based that on the fact that on figures issued on the net for countries with a serious drug problem, Portugal was not on any of those lists. So I presumed that as I could see almost every other European country had a certain drug problem, Portugal's is obviously not that high on the drug agenda.
You can find whatever facts and figures you need to support your side of the debate Neil, but it is not me that needs convincing but the British Government, and unfortunately you will have a much tougher job convincing them than convincing anyone on this site.
It just ain't going to happen no matter what figures YOU believe to be correct.
Sex God
Found some for you Star, though it's a lengthy read at 30 odd pages:
Not had chance to read it fully yet, except to find a figure of 100 000 problem drug users pre-decriminalisation in Portugal being bandied about in a number of other reports referencing the report linked to ^up there^ like . Rob's NTA stats say we have 300 000 problem users of heroin / cocaine, allowing for a little margin for error seems my previous post extrapolating from drug related deaths wasn't very far wrong at all.
Not had chance to read it fully yet, except to find a figure of 100 000 problem drug users pre-decriminalisation in Portugal being bandied about in a number of other reports referencing the report linked to ^up there^ like . Rob's NTA stats say we have 300 000 problem users of heroin / cocaine, allowing for a little margin for error seems my previous post extrapolating from drug related deaths wasn't very far wrong at all.
Sex God
Quote by neilinleeds
Found some for you Star, though it's a lengthy read at 30 odd pages:
Cato Institute : Drug Decriminalization in Portugal - Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies
Not had chance to read it fully yet, except to find a figure of 100 000 problem drug users pre-decriminalisation in Portugal being bandied about in a number of other reports referencing the report linked to ^up there^ like this one. Rob's NTA stats say we have 300 000 problem users of heroin / cocaine, allowing for a little margin for error seems my previous post extrapolating from drug related deaths wasn't very far wrong at all.
its interesting to see just how much of a decline in drug abuse this experiment has created but looking at it i have to ask the questions
is the decline created by the decriminalization or way addicts are now treated
IE each case treated as an individual with proper help from the likes of social workers and psychologist
Quote by flower411
As you are such an expert on my posting history , I`ve no doubt you know what happened when I made allusions to another members alcohol consumption ....
I don't actually but I do know how you post, and the reasons behind your posts, and the reasons for your little trips away. Bloody hell, you could pick a fight with a one armed blind man down an alley in Alaska you.
Quote by flower411
Don`t worry ....he`ll be along in a minute
Seems he won't be after all.
Now run along and talk to someone who gives a monkeys. :twisted:
Quote by neilinleeds
Found some for you Star, though it's a lengthy read at 30 odd pages:
Cato Institute : Drug Decriminalization in Portugal - Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies
Not had chance to read it fully yet, except to find a figure of 100 000 problem drug users pre-decriminalisation in Portugal being bandied about in a number of other reports referencing the report linked to ^up there^ like this one. Rob's NTA stats say we have 300 000 problem users of heroin / cocaine, allowing for a little margin for error seems my previous post extrapolating from drug related deaths wasn't very far wrong at all.
Thank you Neil. Now I had trouble finding a report like this, and well done to you for your perseverance. :thumbup:
It still does not matter, try sending that to David Cameron, c/o Downing...........
It is they you need to convince Neil. :notes:
Sex God
Quote by Lizaleanrob
is the decline created by the decriminalization or way addicts are now treated
IE each case treated as an individual with proper help from the likes of social workers and psychologist
Think I can see where you're going with this Rob. Yeah, you're right I think, it's the latter that's most important inasmuch as addicts that come to the attention of the authorities are being steered towards treatment where their addictions can be treated as a medical issue, rather than as a criminal justice issue. Decriminalisation is the thing that enables that steering I think, rather than being the full solution by itself.
I guess it could be argued a Drug Treatment Testing Order serves a similar purpose to the above while retaining the criminal justice aspect. Whether you could increase the throughput of schemes like that by going down the decriminalisation road is I guess a question that can't be answered without actual testing. It may be worth doing so.
Quote by Lizaleanrob
its interesting to see just how much of a decline in drug abuse this experiment has created but looking at it i have to ask the questions
is the decline created by the decriminalization or way addicts are now treated
IE each case treated as an individual with proper help from the likes of social workers and psychologist
I need to ask the question Rob and maybe Neil could also give me answer.
Where is firstly the money going to come from to fund this project, but more importantly than that, where are the additional Social workers going to come from? Has anyone any idea the cost of what some people are proposing here? In child protection cases they have got nowhere near the Social workers needed to do a proper job. Would this also be the same?
Let us say that the Government decided to follow in Portugal's steps and try the decrimalisation or lagalisation of drugs. This I would presume would not be an overnight study but one that could possibly go on for what 5 years before we know any figures? Fine, but where are the professionals coming from? Will it be the same old story of good idea but just nobody behind it to give it the proper care and more importantly the proper funding and care professionals needed?
Can anyone tell me where these additional people are going to magically appear from, or even the money to fund it?
Sex God
The specialist addiction units treatment of this sort requires already exist Star. Where do you think addicts pick up their methadone and buprenorphine at the moment? From Rob's 200 000 users ( among them what once would have been called registered addicts before the rquirement to register addicts by GPs was dropped ) already in contact to some extent with them out of an estimated total number of problem users of around 300 000. Put more people through treatment than sure costs will increase accordingly but seems these agencies are already fully geared up to treat large numbers of users. I see no issue here.
Quote by neilinleeds
The specialist addiction units treatment of this sort requires already exist Star. Where do you think addicts pick up their methadone and buprenorphine at the moment? From Rob's link 200 000 users ( among them what once would have been called registered addicts before the rquirement to register addicts by GPs was dropped ) already in contact to some extent with them out of an estimated total number of problem users of around 300 000. Put more people through treatment than sure costs will increase accordingly but seems these agencies are already fully geared up to treat large numbers of users. I see no issue here.
That is not what I asked Neil.
If drugs were readily available to ALL addicts and drug users your telling me that the structure to treat all those extra people with Social workers and other professionals is already in place? Really?
Nobody can possibly say how many extra drug users would use the free drug centers,but if druge were freely available they would be swamped, and the system struggles to cope now as there are cutbacks on every level, so if it was to only increase by say 20% from current levels and the money is not there now, how do we go about treating all these extra people Neil?
Or are these people more needing than other members of society? The money and the infrastructure and the care professionals certainly would not be able to cope with any sort of increases in current numbers unless there was a substantial increase in funds. Do you think those funds should be made available Neil over other needy causes?
If you do why?
Sex God
Star - Please try to stay with the story.
The story is about how much money is currently being wasted on a failed drugs policy. If the money already being wasted could be both cut and re-aligned to something that will provide results - surely that would be a better system?
The story is about how much money is currently being wasted on a failed drugs policy. If the money already being wasted could be both cut and re-aligned to something that will provide results - surely that would be a better system?
Quote by Too Hot
Star - Please try to stay with the story.
The story is about how much money is currently being wasted on a failed drugs policy. If the money already being wasted could be both cut and re-aligned to something that will provide results - surely that would be a better system?
Is that what the OP stated at the beginning of the thread?
Sex God
If drugs were readily available to ALL addicts and drug users your telling me that the structure to treat all those extra people with Social workers and other professionals is already in place? Really?
Nobody can possibly say how many extra drug users would use the free drug centers,but if druge were freely available they would be swamped, and the system struggles to cope now as there are cutbacks on every level, so if it was to only increase by say 20% from current levels and the money is not there now, how do we go about treating all these extra people Neil?
I think you're confusing two issues here Star, and perhaps tying yourself up in knots because of it? The route Portugal has gone down is criminalisation of the supply side is retained, with decriminalisation of possession. Addicts ( and only addicts ) receive their maintenance drugs, which may not be their drug of choice, methadone instead of heroin for example, once inducted on to treatment programmes. Noone's making drugs freely available to none users. Similarly noone would be making drugs freely available to none users if we went down the full legalisation route. Users buying from licenced outlets would be one possibility in that scenario. Only those users who develop an addiction would be coming through drug treatment centres after they've failed to manage their use responsibly, at which point their addiction becomes a medical ( rather than criminal ) issue requiring treatment.
Before anyone asks what's to stop these recreational users blagging free drugs out of the treatment centres right from the off, the same thing that stops them doing it now: the requirement to provide blood tests confirming that the drugs being sought are actually in their system combined with objectively testable signs of withdrawal from those drugs indicating physical dependence.
In any event, the Portugal experiment shows that with decriminalisation as implemented there the number taking drugs, and by extension seeking drugs has actually fallen, not increased, so not sure where you're going with this any more?
Sex God
Quote by neilinleeds
is the decline created by the decriminalization or way addicts are now treated
IE each case treated as an individual with proper help from the likes of social workers and psychologist
Think I can see where you're going with this Rob. Yeah, you're right I think, it's the latter that's most important inasmuch as addicts that come to the attention of the authorities are being steered towards treatment where their addictions can be treated as a medical issue, rather than as a criminal justice issue. Decriminalisation is the thing that enables that steering I think, rather than being the full solution by itself.
I guess it could be argued a Drug Treatment Testing Order serves a similar purpose to the above while retaining the criminal justice aspect. Whether you could increase the throughput of schemes like that by going down the decriminalisation road is I guess a question that can't be answered without actual testing. It may be worth doing so.
i think now that we have moved away for the idea of shoveling free drugs down addicts throats i think we can move towards the real problems Neil
to understand the problem we need to understand the addict and the circumstances that contribute to their addiction
more often than not there is reasonable psychological trauma of some description that also helps feed the addiction, so dealing with addicts on a personal level and an individual basis using not one qualified person but three is a stroke of genius
a good psychologist will understand the correct treatment need to treat the addict if any is needed.
a social worker can work to integrating someone back into society and a lawyer/judge can construct a reasonable form of rehabilitation/punishment if required
i think the idea of decriminalising is to keep whats on the street to a minimum so restricting what is available to new drug addicts this in turn will keep new addicts levels low
all in all you can see why this works and i feel that our own approach is a million miles off even in the bigger drug centers in our citys
Sex God
Reading and reading this again I think I may have missed your point Rob so apologies if that is so but this already happens in the treatment centres here, I'm not sure where your argument is. My experience of the local addiction unit that treats alcohol addiction as well as addictions to other substances is that they have a whole host of treatments running alongside the drug maintenance. They're not just handing out methadone willy-nilly to addicts and then packing them on their way.
Each individual addict is assigned a key worker responsible for one-to-one work tailoring exactly the kind of individual package of measures you describe. This may include Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, talking cure type therapies like counselling, relaxation exercises for those who find they're triggered by stress, social groups for the newly clean ex-addict who having got clean finds they're socially isolated because their circle prior to detox consisted only of other addicts they're trying to stay away from, all kinds of things. This runs in parallel with the GP they liaise with who'll have more experience of the particular needs of their patient as far as other treatments like anti-depressants or whatever go that might also be useful, and outreach services that can provide clean needles and harm reduction help where appropriate. It's pretty well integrated in Leeds, and I don't think Leeds is even remotely unique in that respect. The idea that these centres are just massive drug dispensaries for addicts is a million miles from the truth in my experience of them.
I guess the point is given all of the above, why is it that Portugal seems to be doing so much better than us? If the treatments are similar in these regards how are they having more success with their problem users than we are. The answer I think is that too many of ours are being steered away from effective treatment of the sort we have available in spades by the emphasis on a criminal justice solution, and that's what decriminalisation seeks to address. That's your difference.
Each individual addict is assigned a key worker responsible for one-to-one work tailoring exactly the kind of individual package of measures you describe. This may include Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, talking cure type therapies like counselling, relaxation exercises for those who find they're triggered by stress, social groups for the newly clean ex-addict who having got clean finds they're socially isolated because their circle prior to detox consisted only of other addicts they're trying to stay away from, all kinds of things. This runs in parallel with the GP they liaise with who'll have more experience of the particular needs of their patient as far as other treatments like anti-depressants or whatever go that might also be useful, and outreach services that can provide clean needles and harm reduction help where appropriate. It's pretty well integrated in Leeds, and I don't think Leeds is even remotely unique in that respect. The idea that these centres are just massive drug dispensaries for addicts is a million miles from the truth in my experience of them.
I guess the point is given all of the above, why is it that Portugal seems to be doing so much better than us? If the treatments are similar in these regards how are they having more success with their problem users than we are. The answer I think is that too many of ours are being steered away from effective treatment of the sort we have available in spades by the emphasis on a criminal justice solution, and that's what decriminalisation seeks to address. That's your difference.
Sex God
Quote by neilinleeds
Reading and reading this again I think I may have missed your point Rob so apologies if that is so but this already happens in the treatment centres here, I'm not sure where your argument is. My experience of the local addiction unit that treats alcohol addiction as well as addictions to other substances is that they have a whole host of treatments running alongside the drug maintenance. They're not just handing out methadone willy-nilly to addicts and then packing them on their way.
Each individual addict is assigned a key worker responsible for one-to-one work tailoring exactly the kind of individual package of measures you describe. This may include Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, talking cure type therapies like counselling, relaxation exercises for those who find they're triggered by stress, social groups for the newly clean ex-addict who having got clean finds they're socially isolated because their circle prior to detox consisted only of other addicts they're trying to stay away from, all kinds of things. This runs in parallel with the GP they liaise with who'll have more experience of the particular needs of their patient as far as other treatments like anti-depressants or whatever go that might also be useful, and outreach services that can provide clean needles and harm reduction help where appropriate. It's pretty well integrated in Leeds, and I don't think Leeds is even remotely unique in that respect. The idea that these centres are just massive drug dispensaries for addicts is a million miles from the truth in my experience of them.
I guess the point is given all of the above, why is it that Portugal seems to be doing so much better than us? If the treatments are similar in these regards how are they having more success with their problem users than we are. The answer I think is that too many of ours are being steered away from effective treatment of the sort we have available in spades by the emphasis on a criminal justice solution, and that's what decriminalisation seeks to address. That's your difference.
I'm not sure decriminalisationn would make that difference on its own, in-fact I'd go as far as to say I'd bet money it wouldn't
something they do different makes the difference lets just hope its real and just not as simple as massaging the figures
That's always the problem Ben, people can always cite examples of why not to do something, whereas in the longer term letting the de-crim of buying and using drugs will be beneficial to the economy as a hole.
I am concerned that there are some who think that there will be more users of drugs if they are de-criminalised. Why?? what what evidence is there that there will be more drug takers?
OK, I concede there may be a slight rise due to some people experimenting, hell even I may pop a tab or two just to see "whats its like" hopefully Neil will be able to hold my hand and lead me through a few trips! BUT after a while it will settle back down.
I am concerned that there are some who think that there will be more users of drugs if they are de-criminalised. Why?? what what evidence is there that there will be more drug takers?
OK, I concede there may be a slight rise due to some people experimenting, hell even I may pop a tab or two just to see "whats its like" hopefully Neil will be able to hold my hand and lead me through a few trips! BUT after a while it will settle back down.
Sex God
Quote by Ben_Minx
Are we not focusing on the very tip of the iceberg here?
The problems that result from the criminalisation of recreational drugs impact on every single member of society.
One of the problems with any debate on the subject is that it gets sidetracked onto the extreme examples.
where are the extreme examples ben?
i do believe the debate had grown into the pros and cons of exactly what was making Portugal's system work, which so far is the only working example of decriminalisation in this or any other debate on the subject that anyone has put forward
the good thing is its not ideals or opinion its a factual working example
Sex God
any enlightenment ben 
pardus quod macula
pardus quod macula
