No to Legalising Drugs But.......

16 Oct 2012

It would be wrong to legalise Class1 we should make it a CLINCAL decision to give pure ,unadulterated
Heroin to addicts,which is easier to wean people off,unlike the impure stuff sold on the Streets,and if addicts
Are able to get it from GP's then such a scheme would pull the rug under the Criminals.
James

16 Oct 2012

We already have a thread about this subject, but while I am here
So the drug dealers will immediately pack up and get a job in the entertainments industry.
Excellent solution.
But, what happens if they are unhappy at losing thier massive income and lifestyle, what if they realise they have only lost the existing users and decide to step up the sale to non-users to compensate for the drop in trade ?
What if they decide to diversify into other criminal activities instead, what are your solutions for the increase in other crime, people trafficking, racketeering, illegal alcohol, illegal tobacco, prostitution, robbery, fraud, credit card fraud, scams ?

16 Oct 2012

Quote by MidsCouple24
We already have a thread about this subject, but while I am here
So the drug dealers will immediately pack up and get a job in the entertainments industry.
Excellent solution.
But, what happens if they are unhappy at losing thier massive income and lifestyle, what if they realise they have only lost the existing users and decide to step up the sale to non-users to compensate for the drop in trade ?
What if they decide to diversify into other criminal activities instead, what are your solutions for the increase in other crime, people trafficking, racketeering, illegal alcohol, illegal tobacco, prostitution, robbery, fraud, credit card fraud, scams ?

16 Oct 2012

wonder where the addicts will get their fix when the drug centres are shut :doh:
and how will they fiance their habit when the allotted amount for the day has been used up
or do we give em a fuck off big bag and say get on with it ........double :doh:
will we also get holiday druggies like we already get holiday nhs treatment :eeek:

16 Oct 2012

We were certainly going this way again recently. The so-called British System of prescribing diamorphine to addicts as had existed previously up until the late '60s was seeing something of a rebirth under the last Govt at least. With the setting up of the National Treatment Agency in 2001 and the publication of the 2002 Updated Drugs Strategy the last Govt made explicit provision for an expansion of diamorphine prescribing where the most suitable option. I'm not sure if this has panned out in quite the way intended under the latest Govt, TBH I haven't kept up with it and struggling to find the info on how it's gone since.
It's a no brainer, classic harm reduction. Note harm reduction, not elimination, an important distinction. For those who are not yet ready for abstinence based programmes or are resistant to maintenance on other drugs like methadone or buprenorphine it's perfectly right and proper that clinicians should have available the option of diamorphine in their arsenal. The decision as to whether it's the right drug to make available given the individual circumstances of a particular user should be theirs and theirs alone, free of all political considerations and based solely on clinical need.
Makes perfect sense:

reduces the individual's exposure to illicit sources
reduces health risks associated with bad IV practice where injection is supervised
improves contact time with those able to offer other psychological / behavioural therapies alongside,
improves social functioning / ability to pursue education, employment, etc now time is freed up from sourcing a fix,
reduces acquisitive crime to pay for said fix,
improves retention on programmes now able to offer the user their drug of choice.

Who could object to any of that? confused

17 Oct 2012

What a lot seem to forget is that drug addicts are still people inside who for one reason or another has gotten sucked into a spiral of drugs and whatever else they become associated with when under the influence of said drugs
There are no perfect answers on how to deal with drug dependency , prescribed or not and I seriously doubt the majority of those addicted to the likes of Heroin/Methamphetamime etc when first taking it ever fully realised just what it would lead to and where it would take them (tripping aside)
I hate drugs of any description, loathe taking prescribed medicine and get angry with those that take the likes of Class A ....BUT I don't have any real answers as to how to deal with it and until I do I'll not judge those hooked on them.

17 Oct 2012

Quote by Toots
What a lot seem to forget is that drug addicts are still people inside who for one reason or another has gotten sucked into a spiral of drugs and whatever else they become associated with when under the influence of said drugs

Of their own choice, and let us not forget that eh?

Quote by Toots
There are no perfect answers on how to deal with drug dependency , prescribed or not and I seriously doubt the majority of those addicted to the likes of Heroin/Methamphetamime etc when first taking it ever fully realised just what it would lead to and where it would take them (tripping aside)

A bit like anything negative a person does in their life. They had a choice and opted down that road. There are also choices with regards to help available. The help available is on a much wider scale than it ever has been in the past. The trouble is that a lot of addicts refuse that help.

Quote by Toots
I hate drugs of any description, loathe taking prescribed medicine and get angry with those that take the likes of Class A ....BUT I don't have any real answers as to how to deal with it and until I do I'll not judge those hooked on them.

Until one of them breaks into your house or cracks you over the head with a bottle, just to get their next fix. I am sure you would judge their behavior then. I am all for helping these addicts as best that society as a whole can, but if they choose to continue their downward spiral then sorry but that help available should be stopped.
I am not a great believer in that if addicts could get their next fix from a medical centre that all would become well overnight. I think their drug habit would get worse in the long run, as they will take the free drugs and continue to do the crime to gain extra fixes.
Any drugs they were to be given out, would be under very strict guidelines, and many addicts would need far more drugs than the centres would allow.

17 Oct 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
What a lot seem to forget is that drug addicts are still people inside who for one reason or another has gotten sucked into a spiral of drugs and whatever else they become associated with when under the influence of said drugs

Quote by starlightcouple
Of their own choice, and let us not forget that eh?

Whose forgetting? Haven't you made a decision to do something that later you think 'shit, that was a bad idea'

Quote by Toots
There are no perfect answers on how to deal with drug dependency , prescribed or not and I seriously doubt the majority of those addicted to the likes of Heroin/Methamphetamime etc when first taking it ever fully realised just what it would lead to and where it would take them (tripping aside)

Quote by starlightcouple
A bit like anything negative a person does in their life. They had a choice and opted down that road. There are also choices with regards to help available. The help available is on a much wider scale than it ever has been in the past. The trouble is that a lot of addicts refuse that help.

How do you know they're a negative person? You appear to have compartmentalised a drug taker already?

Quote by Toots
I hate drugs of any description, loathe taking prescribed medicine and get angry with those that take the likes of Class A ....BUT I don't have any real answers as to how to deal with it and until I do I'll not judge those hooked on them.

Quote by starlightcouple
Until one of them breaks into your house or cracks you over the head with a bottle,

How little you know.

Quote by starlightcouple
I am not a great believer in that if addicts could get their next fix from a medical centre that all would become well overnight. I think their drug habit would get worse in the long run, as they will take the free drugs and continue to do the crime to gain extra fixes.

Again you appear to have judged a drug addict ' continue to do the crime to gain extra fixes' How easy it must be for you to sit atop and look down eh?

Quote by starlightcouple
Any drugs they were to be given out, would be under very strict guidelines, and many addicts would need far more drugs than the centres would allow.

That would be where I mentioned 'no real answers' and the rest of your statement is purely your own opinion and not one of fact, another armchair critics offering solutions to problems they appear to have zero understanding of.

17 Oct 2012

Quote by Toots
What a lot seem to forget is that drug addicts are still people inside who for one reason or another has gotten sucked into a spiral of drugs and whatever else they become associated with when under the influence of said drugs

Quote by starlightcouple
Of their own choice, and let us not forget that eh?

Whose forgetting? Haven't you made a decision to do something that later you think 'shit, that was a bad idea'

Quote by Toots
There are no perfect answers on how to deal with drug dependency , prescribed or not and I seriously doubt the majority of those addicted to the likes of Heroin/Methamphetamime etc when first taking it ever fully realised just what it would lead to and where it would take them (tripping aside)

Quote by starlightcouple
A bit like anything negative a person does in their life. They had a choice and opted down that road. There are also choices with regards to help available. The help available is on a much wider scale than it ever has been in the past. The trouble is that a lot of addicts refuse that help.

How do you know they're a negative person? You appear to have compartmentalised a drug taker already?

Quote by Toots
I hate drugs of any description, loathe taking prescribed medicine and get angry with those that take the likes of Class A ....BUT I don't have any real answers as to how to deal with it and until I do I'll not judge those hooked on them.

Quote by starlightcouple
Until one of them breaks into your house or cracks you over the head with a bottle,

How little you know.

Quote by starlightcouple
I am not a great believer in that if addicts could get their next fix from a medical centre that all would become well overnight. I think their drug habit would get worse in the long run, as they will take the free drugs and continue to do the crime to gain extra fixes.

Again you appear to have judged a drug addict ' continue to do the crime to gain extra fixes' How easy it must be for you to sit atop and look down eh?

Quote by starlightcouple
Any drugs they were to be given out, would be under very strict guidelines, and many addicts would need far more drugs than the centres would allow.

17 Oct 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Thanks for your reply. :notes:

This is completely off topic, but I've noticed that you take a lot of notes, Star ( :notes: )... you must have written a whole book by now?? :giggle:
kiss

18 Oct 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
I am not a great believer in that if addicts could get their next fix from a medical centre that all would become well overnight. I think their drug habit would get worse in the long run, as they will take the free drugs and continue to do the crime to gain extra fixes.
Any drugs they were to be given out, would be under very strict guidelines, and many addicts would need far more drugs than the centres would allow.

Not sure why you think addicts would need more drugs than the centre would allow. If you're not prescribing at the level dictated by the individual's tolerance you're on a hiding to nothing from the off, so of course you dose as is appropriate to the individual's requirements. As for illicit use this would be easily monitored Star I'm sure. The pharmokinetics of heroin ( what happens to it in the body as it is metabolised ) are sufficiently well understood to make testing for illicit use over and above the amount prescribed fairly trivial I would think, perhaps with a simple blood test looking at serum levels of metabolites at a given point in time after dosing, allowing for the individual's metabolism for instance. Find they have more remaining in their system than would be expected indicating illicit use and you start with the sanctions, sanctions that would include removal from the programme. Simples.
The point Star is not that users would become well over night. Of course not, noone's pretending as much. It is called maintenance for a reason: you keep them where they are so they don't get any worse at least before they have a chance to get better. The point is to bring users who would not otherwise be in contact with treatment centres given a resistance to methadone / buprenorphine and not yet ready for detox and abstinence into the fold where their use can be stabilised and made less problematic for them personally, and for wider society. The aim is to make their lives less chaotic and less risky so that they're able to function socially at least and meet their day to day responsibilities, as opposed to abdicating responsibility altogether in the search for their next fix. It's enabling them to be productive and responsible members of society despite their drug use that is often most important as far as fostering long term change goes. Once you've begun the process of change, often with a small series of baby steps the likelihood of more fundamental changes like detox and recovery becomes much greater.

18 Oct 2012

You could of course always search the web for comparisons of rehab programmes using heroin and those using heroin substitutes and compare their success rates ..... I couldn't be bothered but I believe you'll find that those using heroin are far more successful ..... but why let something like a demonstrable fact get in the way of an opinion ... I mean after all we've all got a right to one

19 Oct 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
wonder where the addicts will get their fix when the drug centres are shut :doh:
and how will they fiance their habit when the allotted amount for the day has been used up
or do we give em a fuck off big bag and say get on with it ........double :doh:
will we also get holiday druggies like we already get holiday nhs treatment :eeek:

no takers then? ..............i know i know awkward questions have no place in the CA forum

good job i didn't list them all then

19 Oct 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
wonder where the addicts will get their fix when the drug centres are shut :doh:
and how will they fiance their habit when the allotted amount for the day has been used up
or do we give em a fuck off big bag and say get on with it ........double :doh:
will we also get holiday druggies like we already get holiday nhs treatment :eeek:

no takers then? ..............i know i know awkward questions have no place in the CA forum

good job i didn't list them all then
Will we be able to afford to get the staff to man these drug shops? What about security issues? Will there have to be big burly armed officers, on the lookout, 24/7? Where in times of austerity is this money supposed to come from exactly? Who pays for it? Oh the tax persons of course. Why should the taxpayer like me, help to openly fund a drug addict? No more dealers as they will have no places left to sell.:doh:
There are politicians in the making on here.
You REALLY could not make it up for sure.

19 Oct 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
wonder where the addicts will get their fix when the drug centres are shut :doh:
and how will they fiance their habit when the allotted amount for the day has been used up
or do we give em a fuck off big bag and say get on with it ........double :doh:
will we also get holiday druggies like we already get holiday nhs treatment :eeek:

no takers then? ..............i know i know awkward questions have no place in the CA forum
You clearly know nothing about the users, the drug, its effect and how a more proactive outlook could benefit.
1) Users are not generally in a 24/7 catatonic state and will easily modify their behaviour to take advantage of free and more importantly, safe fixes
2) Who decides what the alloted amount is? Allocating one tenth of the funds currently being wasted on the war on drugs would be enough to provide safe, secure walk in centres for Users - ALL of whom do want help.
3) Holiday druggies? You mean like how we all go to Amsterdam coffee shops? Silly comparison.
4) No awkward questions there - just statememnts originating from a closed mind.
The war on drugs is a complete failure and a total waste of money. I am early 50's now and the war that was going on when I was a teenager is still going on - possibly worse now. Unfortunately - people take drugs - always have and always will. So if the same drugs strategy has been in place for 40 years and is not working - does it not make sense to try something else? Let's be real about this and just accept that a huge % of people have taken drugs at some stage in their life be it hash, acid, ecstacy, coke or something stronger. Many found it pleasurable, non addictive and a better social experience than alcohol and so continued it. Meanwhile we all get treated like children and told the same stories that we were told 40 years ago. Something has to change.

20 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
The war on drugs is a complete failure and a total waste of money. I am early 50's now and the war that was going on when I was a teenager is still going on - possibly worse now. Unfortunately - people take drugs - always have and always will. So if the same drugs strategy has been in place for 40 years and is not working - does it not make sense to try something else? Let's be real about this and just accept that a huge % of people have taken drugs at some stage in their life be it hash, acid, ecstacy, coke or something stronger. Many found it pleasurable, non addictive and a better social experience than alcohol and so continued it. Meanwhile we all get treated like children and told the same stories that we were told 40 years ago. Something has to change.

+1s on above. By any standards this is a failed policy. More of the same is beyond sane and humane whichever way you look at it, financially, medically, socially, morally, whatever.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~ Albert Einstein
Only logical course of action is try something else. Only economic importance on nation state scale given investment in and counter to the trade in illegals can explain the reluctance of the big players like the US to move on this, no moral authority whatsoever. Start from scratch, level the playing field all substances legal and then build a new reclassification of the drugs of abuse by objective relative harm, work upward from there, prohibit the ones deemed most dangerous but decriminalise for simple posession. Don't think can be all that up for argument any more, some even on the fringes of govt openly acknowledge it. Only question is how to proceed from here, nothing else..

20 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
wonder where the addicts will get their fix when the drug centres are shut :doh:
and how will they fiance their habit when the allotted amount for the day has been used up
or do we give em a fuck off big bag and say get on with it ........double :doh:
will we also get holiday druggies like we already get holiday nhs treatment :eeek:

no takers then? ..............i know i know awkward questions have no place in the CA forum
You clearly know nothing about the users, the drug, its effect and how a more proactive outlook could benefit.
really!! a life long Friend was a heroin addict due to my my background with drugs im more than aware of what a drug like heroin can do to an otherwise good person !!!
i fear you know fuck all and plenty of it when i comes to hard drugs and maybe your vision is clouded by a sneaky puff on a joint at weekends
i have kept in touch with Friends who turned to drugs and some still on them some 30 years later
so please don't try to educate me on the affects of drugs on people as i have done and seen a life study of 30 years whilst obviously you have not !!!!
1) Users are not generally in a 24/7 catatonic state and will easily modify their behaviour to take advantage of free and more importantly, safe fixes
fucking hell did you really write this?? withdrawal starts about 4 hours after the effects have worn off druggies don't sleep like we do so at some point they will want drugs when the centre is shut, now where do you think they will get from.
given the smallest amount of heroin can cause an overdose situation,(safe fix ffs ) the lawyers for you will be queuing at the door
2) Who decides what the allotted amount is? Allocating one tenth of the funds currently being wasted on the war on drugs would be enough to provide safe, secure walk in centres for Users - ALL of whom do want help.
the allotted amount would be enough to keep the druggie from going to the black market later in the day when his supply has run out or the centre just becomes a place for the criminals to sell off excess,add to the fact who decides who gets free drugs and who does not or can we all try them
3) Holiday druggies? You mean like how we all go to Amsterdam coffee shops? Silly comparison.
no you will find coffee shops are still against the law in Holland but are tolerated try to get you facts right and we are talking addictive drugs or are we handing out all and sundries
4) No awkward questions there - just statememnts originating from a closed mind.
you might want to open your eyes a little, go visit some drug groups,have a look at the way these drugs mentaly change people the desperation to get these drugs the hard ship they will endure to make sure they get thier fix i can honestly say by reading this you are absolutly clueless
The war on drugs is a complete failure and a total waste of money. I am early 50's now and the war that was going on when I was a teenager is still going on - possibly worse now. Unfortunately - people take drugs - always have and allyou didn ways will. So if the same drugs strategy has been in place for 40 years and is not working - does it not make sense to try something else? Let's be real about this and just accept that a huge % of people have taken drugs at some stage in their life be it hash, acid, ecstacy, coke or something stronger. Many found it pleasurable, non addictive and a better social experience than alcohol and so continued it. Meanwhile we all get treated like children and told the same stories that we were told 40 years ago. Something has to change.
proper rehabilitation centres need to be set up with proper qualified physiological help
a way needs to be found to suppress the mental and physical cravings talk to ex heroin users they will tell you after 20 years the drug still calls them and they still dream about it
just handing out the drugs will make the situation worse a lot worse and is championed by a load of middle aged puff heads who don't want the embarrassment of their names in the paper if they get caught ffs

20 Oct 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
wonder where the addicts will get their fix when the drug centres are shut :doh:
and how will they fiance their habit when the allotted amount for the day has been used up
or do we give em a fuck off big bag and say get on with it ........double :doh:
will we also get holiday druggies like we already get holiday nhs treatment :eeek:

no takers then? ..............i know i know awkward questions have no place in the CA forum
You clearly know nothing about the users, the drug, its effect and how a more proactive outlook could benefit.
really!! a life long Friend was a heroin addict due to my my background with drugs im more than aware of what a drug like heroin can do to an otherwise good person !!!
i fear you know fuck all and plenty of it when i comes to hard drugs and maybe your vision is clouded by a sneaky puff on a joint at weekends
i have kept in touch with Friends who turned to drugs and some still on them some 30 years later
so please don't try to educate me on the affects of drugs on people as i have done and seen a life study of 30 years whilst obviously you have not !!!!
1) Users are not generally in a 24/7 catatonic state and will easily modify their behaviour to take advantage of free and more importantly, safe fixes
fucking hell did you really write this?? withdrawal starts about 4 hours after the effects have worn off druggies don't sleep like we do so at some point they will want drugs when the centre is shut, now where do you think they will get from.
given the smallest amount of heroin can cause an overdose situation,(safe fix ffs ) the lawyers for you will be queuing at the door
2) Who decides what the allotted amount is? Allocating one tenth of the funds currently being wasted on the war on drugs would be enough to provide safe, secure walk in centres for Users - ALL of whom do want help.
the allotted amount would be enough to keep the druggie from going to the black market later in the day when his supply has run out or the centre just becomes a place for the criminals to sell off excess,add to the fact who decides who gets free drugs and who does not or can we all try them
3) Holiday druggies? You mean like how we all go to Amsterdam coffee shops? Silly comparison.
no you will find coffee shops are still against the law in Holland but are tolerated try to get you facts right and we are talking addictive drugs or are we handing out all and sundries
4) No awkward questions there - just statememnts originating from a closed mind.
you might want to open your eyes a little, go visit some drug groups,have a look at the way these drugs mentaly change people the desperation to get these drugs the hard ship they will endure to make sure they get thier fix i can honestly say by reading this you are absolutly clueless
The war on drugs is a complete failure and a total waste of money. I am early 50's now and the war that was going on when I was a teenager is still going on - possibly worse now. Unfortunately - people take drugs - always have and allyou didn ways will. So if the same drugs strategy has been in place for 40 years and is not working - does it not make sense to try something else? Let's be real about this and just accept that a huge % of people have taken drugs at some stage in their life be it hash, acid, ecstacy, coke or something stronger. Many found it pleasurable, non addictive and a better social experience than alcohol and so continued it. Meanwhile we all get treated like children and told the same stories that we were told 40 years ago. Something has to change.
proper rehabilitation centres need to be set up with proper qualified physiological help
a way needs to be found to suppress the mental and physical cravings talk to ex heroin users they will tell you after 20 years the drug still calls them and they still dream about it
just handing out the drugs will make the situation worse a lot worse and is championed by a load of middle aged puff heads who don't want the embarrassment of their names in the paper if they get caught ffs
What has the existing law done to make your "life long friend" any better or the conditions and issues surrounding his/her habit over the last 30 years of your life study? Let me guess... Nothing. A sure way to make sure that nothing changes is to carry on doing as we are doing at the moment. Alternatively we can ask a panel of independant experts to review current drugs policy and when they report back after six years, we can sack the Chairman, ignore the report and carry on as before - failing.
You are very quick to throw insuults at people who have an opinion, but what is your solution to this problem? A problem that remains unsolved despite £ Billions being spent to fight the issues. Having a closed mind means that you simply cannot offer a solution to anything. You argue that you have not got a closed mind - so what is your solution?
Just a word - I am not biting to your insults and will not lower myself to swearing at someone who does not agree with me. If you do it again - I won't add any more to the thread.

20 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
What has the existing law done to make your "life long friend" any better or the conditions and issues surrounding his/her habit over the last 30 years of your life study? Let me guess... Nothing. A sure way to make sure that nothing changes is to carry on doing as we are doing at the moment. Alternatively we can ask a panel of independant experts to review current drugs policy and when they report back after six years, we can sack the Chairman, ignore the report and carry on as before - failing.
You are very quick to throw insuults at people who have an opinion, but what is your solution to this problem? A problem that remains unsolved despite £ Billions being spent to fight the issues. Having a closed mind means that you simply cannot offer a solution to anything. You argue that you have not got a closed mind - so what is your solution?
Just a word - I am not biting to your insults and will not lower myself to swearing at someone who does not agree with me. If you do it again - I won't add any more to the thread.

you might want to stop writing in a such condescending manor for someone that shows little idea of what they are writing about
just how much time have you spent in the company of heroin addicts????
i would like an answer to this one
i last year spent a week of my time with 9 heroin addicts (recovering on methadone) in France cooking fishing socialising and getting to know what made them tick
i can tell you handing out free drugs will not help the situation the mental scars run just as deep as the physical damage the problem is far more complex than weening someone off a habit
heroin users quickly lose Friends and then only make Friends with other users often after kicking the habit they are no longer trusted,nor welcomed back into the lives of old clean Friends or family, this rejection has a very hard knock on affect with rehabilitation which more often than not leads straight back to Friends who are users and the circle of doom starts again
by creating these centres it would become like a community centre of addicts with only more being added as tme goes on
you might recall recently one of Britain's richest heiress died after a 30 year battle with drug addiction. her husband was charged with failing to report her death or something similar
the point here is no matter how free her fix or the fact she did not have to turn to crime for her fix, she attended the worlds best clinics but still it all came to nothing in the end
to me it proves we know little enough about curing addiction to be handing it out on the street. those that can't get it in the centers will still get it from the criminals and so on
i did state what i thought needed to be done investment needs to be in chemical warfare to counter the addiction then genuine psychological help would be needed to help stay clean of the drug not the crap we have in place now

20 Oct 2012

Quote by Toots
What a lot seem to forget is that drug addicts are still people inside who for one reason or another has gotten sucked into a spiral of drugs and whatever else they become associated with when under the influence of said drugs
There are no perfect answers on how to deal with drug dependency , prescribed or not and I seriously doubt the majority of those addicted to the likes of Heroin/Methamphetamime etc when first taking it ever fully realised just what it would lead to and where it would take them (tripping aside)
I hate drugs of any description, loathe taking prescribed medicine and get angry with those that take the likes of Class A ....BUT I don't have any real answers as to how to deal with it and until I do I'll not judge those hooked on them.

I agree with almost everything you say, but for the judging bit, I judge them, I don't care why they take drugs, many people have good reason to want to use drugs to solve thier problems, have fun, forget, some are weak and take the drugs, some rise above it, remember the paralympians ? I could see why drugs might appeal to some of them with what they have to suffer, but no, they take thier burden and become better people not an infestation.
The paralympians don't steal from us, most people who suffer family problems, illness, an inability to find work, abuse and all the other excuses don't turn to drugs, why should we sympathise with those that do.
I want a lot of things I cannot afford, I won't steal from you to get them, I won't make your life miserable because I think mine is.

20 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
We already have a thread about this subject, but while I am here
So the drug dealers will immediately pack up and get a job in the entertainments industry.
Excellent solution.
But, what happens if they are unhappy at losing thier massive income and lifestyle, what if they realise they have only lost the existing users and decide to step up the sale to non-users to compensate for the drop in trade ?
What if they decide to diversify into other criminal activities instead, what are your solutions for the increase in other crime, people trafficking, racketeering, illegal alcohol, illegal tobacco, prostitution, robbery, fraud, credit card fraud, scams ?

Your argument is flawed because much of the annoying "petty crime" is conducted by addicts funding their illegal habit. To start with, that is one element of criminal behaviour that would dissappear and on its own it would benefit the local and national community.
Next step along are the chancers and runners who work for criminal distributors. These people are not hardened criminals (yet) - simply opportunists and if the opportunity is not there - they would not be doing it.
The criminal distributors would suffer a huge loss of income and yes you are right - some (not all) would have to re-align their criminal activities and that would be a problem to be addressed.
It is a very poor show to say that because all criminals would just become criminals in other ways we wshould do nothing. The drug problem needs tackling and all efforts so far - have failed - miserably.
I never said we should do nothing, and if my argument is flawed what does that say for your argument, you say that legalising drugs will eliminate the petty criminals but leave the masters, those that employ the petty criminals, remove the petty criminals that steal to pay for a habit, but again do you think that people who have spent 10 or 20 years living by petty crime will just give up that life and get a job ? or will they carry on with thier petty crime and enjoy a new and better lifestyle on the earnings they used to use for drugs ?
Won't the criminal masters need petty criminals to work whatever knew crime they decide to diversify into ? Nobody ever catches the Masters of credit card fraud, because they live in Albania, sending what were innocent albanians here to do the crime for them, supplying the tools to do the fraud and the knowledge but never even entering this Country themselves. I don't know the answer to the problem and that I freely admit but I do know that legalising drug abuse is not the solution to the problem.

21 Oct 2012

Pinched from another forum

21 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
Pinched from another forum

Sorry Too hot but because it works in a country very different to ours, that does not mean it would work here. Are there any figures on crime that we can compare with the two countries so as to judge how big a problem Portugal have, when compared with the UK?
This comment in your article is a bit worrying.
'Drug use statistics in Portugal are generally "below the European average and much lower than its only European neighbour, Spain," the report also said '.
Where does the UK stand in the ' European average ' too hot?
I shall draw you to a link I found that clearly says...
' Great Britain has the highest rate of drug abuse in all of Europe, and counts for the second highest number of drug related deaths. Great Britain's drug users tend to opt for heavy drugs; such as heroin, cocaine, and MDMA. Every year in Great Britain the number of drug overdoses increases '.

Sort of cannot compare the two countries then?
Not a single mention of Portugal at all.

21 Oct 2012

Sorry Too hot but because it works in a country very different to ours, that does not mean it would work here. Are there any figures on crime that we can compare with the two countries so as to judge how big a problem Portugal have, when compared with the UK?

I don't understand your argument but it would seem to be flawed. Relative numbers of drug users is not relevant to the fact that Portugal have experienced a fall in problem users with more seeking treatment. The more relevant figures would be what sort of percentages are we talking about. If we implemented the same policy why could we not expect a similar result with similar percentages? If our population is greater than theirs then wouldn't simple logic lead one to conclude that we could expect a greater fall in the total number of users / increase in those seeking treatment?

21 Oct 2012

Quote by neilinleeds
I don't understand your argument but it would seem to be flawed. Numbers of drug users is not relevant to the fact that Portugal have experienced a fall in problem users with more seeking treatment. If we implemented the same policy why could we not expect a similar result. If our population is greater than theirs then wouldn't simple logic lead one to conclude that we could expect a greater fall in number of users / increase in those seeking treatment, the comparison being a relative one, not absolute?

Of course it is relevant Neil. If a country has a very low drug problem surely it would be easier to treat?
On every site I have been on Neil I can find no reference to Portugal having anywhere near a serious drug problem, so if they have a very limited problem, surely the resources available would be far better than if you were treating a heck of a lot more people?
Can you find any relevant information with regards to the problems Portugal face with drugs? Surely even you can see that if they have a very small problem that it would be much easier to fix, than a country with a very high drug problem? So hardly a flawed argument.

21 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
Pinched from another forum

taken from your link
The panels composed of psychologists, judges and social workers recommended action based on the specifics of each case.
Since then, government panels have recommended a response based largely on whether the individual is an occasional drug user or an addict.
Of the nearly 40,000 people currently being treated, "the vast majority of problematic users are today supported by a system that does not treat them as delinquents but as sick people," Goulao said.
now where was the free drug walkin centres bit dunno

21 Oct 2012

Portugal has taken a step away from mainstream thinking and it has been a success. That is to be welcomed.
As far as I recall few here wanted any changes at all in this country. The Portugese trial has shown dramatic improvements over a ten year term.
Star - The comparison between Portugal and the UK is very vaid because the trial is not about dealing with just one country it is about taking on a pre-conceived state of mind. Portugal has halved its problem - a 10% success rate in the UK would be a success, let alone a 50% improvement.
Giving drug users of all persuasions the ability to get a pure fix, with clean needles in an environment that they can be comfortable in is about a million timers better than what we have at the moment. Same applies for the more recreational type drugs - a pure product that can be measured accurately and no poisonous impurities.
As I said in my original post - there could likely be unforeseen problems but anything has to be better than the current situation.

21 Oct 2012

Quote by Too Hot
Portugal has taken a step away from mainstream thinking and it has been a success. That is to be welcomed.
As far as I recall few here wanted any changes at all in this country. The Portugese trial has shown dramatic improvements over a ten year term.

A different country with different views and much less of a drug problem than anywhere else in Europe. In fact so much less of a problem that I struggle to find any figures about this country at all. Would you not agree that if you are treating far fewer drug addicts that the problem is easier than if you were dealing with a much higher proportion?

Quote by Too Hot
Star - The comparison between Portugal and the UK is very vaid because the trial is not about dealing with just one country it is about taking on a pre-conceived state of mind. Portugal has halved its problem - a 10% success rate in the UK would be a success, let alone a 50% improvement.

I am unconvinced about a success rate of that proportion in the UK. The drug problem for many in the UK is also a state of mind. I am not convinced about pre-conceived ideas where drugs are concerned.

Quote by Too Hot
Giving drug users of all persuasions the ability to get a pure fix, with clean needles in an environment that they can be comfortable in is about a million timers better than what we have at the moment. Same applies for the more recreational type drugs - a pure product that can be measured accurately and no poisonous impurities.

I admire your way of thinking too hot and you may well be right on parts, but it is never going to happen in this country in my lifetime. I still believe that if drugs were made even more easily available I believe the future drug addicts will increase as a percentage from what they are now, as they will see drugs readily on our high streets and a much more positive way of thinking towards drugs. Making drugs available like what you propose I believe will only glamorise it more than it currently is.

Quote by Too Hot
As I said in my original post - there could likely be unforeseen problems but anything has to be better than the current situation.

I do not believe that this current situation is the worse it can be. I also do not prescribe to the give drugs away, from the taxpayers of this country. I am in no way convinced that the view you take is the right view, and I believe that drugs will remain as they are especially hard drugs and I think that is the right way at this moment in time.

21 Oct 2012

Quote by flower411

I am unconvinced about a success rate of that proportion in the UK. The drug problem for many in the UK is also a state of mind. I am not convinced about pre-conceived ideas where drugs are concerned.

Yet you base your whole argument on your own preconceived ideas and refuse to take on board all evidence to contrary !
Really? No really? Evidence? :bounce:
My argument chum or indeed my opinion does not matter a single toss, what matters is that this Government that has been voted in democratically also takes the same stance as I do. The evidence is flimsy at best based on a country with a limited drug problem.
Thankfully I share my pre-conceived ideas with the British Government in that they also do not take on board the evidence either, and are certainly not going to act on anything that has happened in Portugal.
I wonder why this Government and the last Government indeed any Government, have also not taken on board all this so called ' evidence '. I am sure that if you wanted you could put in a complaint to your own MP if you also feel that their pre-concieved ideologies do not meet with this wonderful evidence that is out there. :doh:
And for the record you can moan as much as you like, drugs are not going to be legalised anyway shape or form, so best get used to it. :thumbup:

21 Oct 2012

just in case you may be interested
i read this a little while ago you may or may not find it worth a read it does have some interesting Facts wink

and this little one saves guestimating lol

sorry had to edit it as it was early this year i read it rolleyes