So a woman comes out of a pub. She is pulled into the bushes beaten and , may be killed. The man has left DNA. The DNA is tested.
Do we check it against a limited data base in the hope that the man has been caught before?
Or do we check it against a full data base of British subjects and visitors to the country, pick the man up inside a day and stop him from doing it fro the next who knows how long.
I say we have a full data base. We will catch more criminals. Those we catch now will be caught sooner. In short we will have less crime, we will if the offenders are taken of the street by the courts.
Travis
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DNA date base
I have no objection to going on a national DNA database, but then I have never broken the law so have nothing to hide. But worry on how this would be managed as normally the people you are trying to include somehow get missed.
How would they test all vistors to the country?
At the airports on arrival?
I can see where you are coming from but just wonder how it will ever be achieved.
How would they test all vistors to the country?
At the airports on arrival?
I can see where you are coming from but just wonder how it will ever be achieved.
Sampling take less that a minuet. The cost could be added to port tax and not everyone would need to be tested as some would be subjects and others repeat visitors. So spread out over all passengers the cost would be low.
Yes there are always 'evaders' but DNA is a very good way to prove ID, making ID theft harder. Making it easier to determine if A is indeed A or an illegal.
Yes there are always 'evaders' but DNA is a very good way to prove ID, making ID theft harder. Making it easier to determine if A is indeed A or an illegal.
Warming the Bed
DNA profiling and assesment of evidence is not as cut and dried as CSI might make you believe.
Let alone the fact that the GOVT can berely manage to keep your private details out of the hands of anyone
I think it should be opt in and with control of the data and meta about the data in the hands of the owners of said not a central database.
If they want a full database on me then I want a refund in tax for the lesser amount of work the police and other authorities are having to tackle.
Let alone the fact that the GOVT can berely manage to keep your private details out of the hands of anyone
I think it should be opt in and with control of the data and meta about the data in the hands of the owners of said not a central database.
If they want a full database on me then I want a refund in tax for the lesser amount of work the police and other authorities are having to tackle.
Master of Sex
Sampling take less that a minuet.
who wil pay the band ?
who wil pay the band ?
Orgasminator
Why stop at DNA ??? do a "job lot" and take your fingerprints at the same time, perhaps a mugshot or two -- and of course if they implanted a chip in your head too (as they do with dogs and cats) they could have detectors on all shop entrances so police computers could follow you in your daily round to see where you were and what naughty things you might get up to!!!!
Sex God
me and dek discussed this recently - i am all for my dna being tested as long as it it a national thing done to everyone. for crime reasons dek is against it because he feels to do do would turn it into even more of a *nanny state* that it is already 
Orgasminator
I think no we should not have a national database, Whilst I agree that in the recent case in the press that it helped catch the prositute killer it did not deter him from doing the murders even though he knew his DNA was on record.
As we have it at the moment if you commit a crime you are recorded and I believe that is enough of an incentive to make a normal/sane person (what ever that is) think twice about commiting a crime. But in the case of this guy and all the others that i have read about I dont think they give a toss if you have their Dna, they are going to do it anyway. Its the thrill of doing it not the fact they might not get caught that drives most of these crimes, we have had the DNA database for many years now and i dont see a drop in serious crimes of this nature that I'm aware of, no doubt a politition would give you a different set of figures. 
This is supposed to make the public feel safer along with CCTV, we are the most monitored country in the world now I think (correct me if I'm wrong) but I dont feel any safer i just feel like I'm in a goldfish bowl and feel dirty because I'm watched so much, Wish I had moved to Europe a few years ago now I never feel unsafe there no matter what time of day or night.
As we have it at the moment if you commit a crime you are recorded and I believe that is enough of an incentive to make a normal/sane person (what ever that is
) think twice about commiting a crime. But in the case of this guy and all the others that i have read about I dont think they give a toss if you have their Dna, they are going to do it anyway. Its the thrill of doing it not the fact they might not get caught that drives most of these crimes, we have had the DNA database for many years now and i dont see a drop in serious crimes of this nature that I'm aware of, no doubt a politition would give you a different set of figures. This is supposed to make the public feel safer along with CCTV, we are the most monitored country in the world now I think (correct me if I'm wrong) but I dont feel any safer i just feel like I'm in a goldfish bowl and feel dirty because I'm watched so much, Wish I had moved to Europe a few years ago now I never feel unsafe there no matter what time of day or night.
Quote by Ukwineman
Wish I had moved to Europe a few years ago now I never feel unsafe there no matter what time of day or night.
Well.. we can say with some happy conviction that the crime around here is pretty much non-existant.
People go to work with windows left open and people in local car parks seldom lock thier cars..
However, we are somewhat rural and the crime in French cites does happen - the bigger the city, the bigger the problem although we still feel that it is a lot less than the UK pro-rata but... unlike the UK the police are armed and are chosen for their destinct lack of humour, also, the laws are made to protect the victim and police, not the other way around.
If any CCTV does exist in France outside of the Autoroute system and airports, then we have yet to see it.(Big brother, who's that then?)
Personally we both feel that taking DNA from everyone is taking things far to far...As Winey said, these people don't give a toss, they are going to do it anyway DNA records or not. The SOB's who carried out 9/11 in the U.S. you could have had their DNA, eye scan, inside leg and length of willie.. it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the final outcome apart from maybe knowing who did it...
Rant over, climbs off soap box and back into Cognac bottle....
" I don't mind, I have nothing to hide and don't commit crime"
People say this all the time, but, we may not have anything to hide, but we have plenty to fear.
I would not trust the goverment to run a bath let alone a national DNA database. Look at the cock up of the NHS computer system. All the personal information lost over the past year(missing discs etc etc).
Whilst I agree that DNA can help catch criminals, I just don't trust the goverment with my info.
I used to be in favour of a DNA database and ID cards but not anymore.
The police know who the criminals are, it's the bloody courts that keep setting them free.
Another point, if the goverment had my DNA they could clone me! :shock:
People say this all the time, but, we may not have anything to hide, but we have plenty to fear.
I would not trust the goverment to run a bath let alone a national DNA database. Look at the cock up of the NHS computer system. All the personal information lost over the past year(missing discs etc etc).
Whilst I agree that DNA can help catch criminals, I just don't trust the goverment with my info.
I used to be in favour of a DNA database and ID cards but not anymore.
The police know who the criminals are, it's the bloody courts that keep setting them free.
Another point, if the goverment had my DNA they could clone me! :shock:
Sexpert
this system, like ID cards, is open to abuse.
The UK already has more security cameras than any other country in the world.
Soon this will be like a police state. It's half way there already.
The UK already has more security cameras than any other country in the world.
Soon this will be like a police state. It's half way there already.
Carry-on then, volunteer to be dna'ed.
No problem, you've not committed a crime.
Mind you, you may well be declined insurance if your dna reveals that you are prone/going-to-be prone to a disease. You may even be arrested if your dna was found at a crime scene, never mind that you only visited the place to do the plumbing/cleaning/painting/delivery...etc
After all, once you've given it to the gov it ceases to be "yours" and becomes "theirs" to do with as they want.....
And it will not only be "given" to this gov, the home office routinely shares information with the US gov....in fact, they have "live" access to police records. Further, it was announced today that the dna database will be accessible to all eu govs as well.
And to cap it all, the chance of your being arrested for nothing actually increases the more people are sampled...because while the chance of two people being the same is remote, the amount being checked is small, so you may well match someone else with the 20 points (for instance) taken.....and you'd have to wait for a thorough check to be made. Then again, the crim may well be a relative of yours....
Oh, this gets to be SO complex.
It all depends on the honesty of the police as well....after all, crimes committed 30 years ago may be easily solved with the addition of a small amount of your skin/salive/semen/blood etc.... and who's to tell ?
Who really gives a monkeys about someone shouting "IT WASN'T ME"
Nah...the police are doing quite well enough putting innocent people in jail as it is....
No problem, you've not committed a crime.
Mind you, you may well be declined insurance if your dna reveals that you are prone/going-to-be prone to a disease. You may even be arrested if your dna was found at a crime scene, never mind that you only visited the place to do the plumbing/cleaning/painting/delivery...etc
After all, once you've given it to the gov it ceases to be "yours" and becomes "theirs" to do with as they want.....
And it will not only be "given" to this gov, the home office routinely shares information with the US gov....in fact, they have "live" access to police records. Further, it was announced today that the dna database will be accessible to all eu govs as well.
And to cap it all, the chance of your being arrested for nothing actually increases the more people are sampled...because while the chance of two people being the same is remote, the amount being checked is small, so you may well match someone else with the 20 points (for instance) taken.....and you'd have to wait for a thorough check to be made. Then again, the crim may well be a relative of yours....
Oh, this gets to be SO complex.
It all depends on the honesty of the police as well....after all, crimes committed 30 years ago may be easily solved with the addition of a small amount of your skin/salive/semen/blood etc.... and who's to tell ?
Who really gives a monkeys about someone shouting "IT WASN'T ME"
Nah...the police are doing quite well enough putting innocent people in jail as it is....
Warming the Bed
If it comes in , if DNA or this stuff comes in ,then I am going to do three things.
1. apply for copywrite of my DNA and Fingerprints.
2. Pay for a 23 and me kit and publish my DNA information and data public ally with some appropriate license.
3. Scan in high resolution all my finger and palm prints then publish them
I figure if the Govt wants it then we should just drop it all out there if we all did that the value of the information becomes diluted by its availability. It would undermine and reduce the value and effectiveness of such systems. After al it wouldnt just be you and the govt that could have access to that information so now youve got a interesting alibi.
The Govt and private business is no place to hold anything confidential so you might as well make it public.
im a bit of a rebel really
1. apply for copywrite of my DNA and Fingerprints.
2. Pay for a 23 and me kit and publish my DNA information and data public ally with some appropriate license.
3. Scan in high resolution all my finger and palm prints then publish them
I figure if the Govt wants it then we should just drop it all out there if we all did that the value of the information becomes diluted by its availability. It would undermine and reduce the value and effectiveness of such systems. After al it wouldnt just be you and the govt that could have access to that information so now youve got a interesting alibi.
The Govt and private business is no place to hold anything confidential so you might as well make it public.
im a bit of a rebel really
Many old violent cases are solved by a DNA sample taken due to an arrest for a completely separate crime today. It is not the fact that the criminal is deterd but the fact that the criminal is taken off the street before committing further crimes. How many lives could a data base have save in the last ten years? How much crime prevented by locking criminals up? How many of us would not have come home to a ransacked home?
Yes the TV show CSI does stretch the abilities of science. The fact remains if you have a drop of blood, a scape of skin or even less an offender can be identified.
As for miss-carriages of justice, it is not the science that puts the wrong person in prison, it is twelve men and women. I remind you that the guilty go free daily because of a lack of evidence, that the guilty are release from prison not because they are innocent but because there is a chance, just a chance that they may be innocent.
As for needing less police on the street if a DNA data base is introduced, that's good. Less crime less police. Less spent on the police service.
Yes the TV show CSI does stretch the abilities of science. The fact remains if you have a drop of blood, a scape of skin or even less an offender can be identified.
As for miss-carriages of justice, it is not the science that puts the wrong person in prison, it is twelve men and women. I remind you that the guilty go free daily because of a lack of evidence, that the guilty are release from prison not because they are innocent but because there is a chance, just a chance that they may be innocent.
As for needing less police on the street if a DNA data base is introduced, that's good. Less crime less police. Less spent on the police service.
Quote by
Many old violent cases are solved by a DNA sample taken due to an arrest for a completely separate crime today. It is not the fact that the criminal is deterd but the fact that the criminal is taken off the street before committing further crimes. How many lives could a data base have save in the last ten years? How much crime prevented by locking criminals up? How many of us would not have come home to a ransacked home?
Yes the TV show CSI does stretch the abilities of science. The fact remains if you have a drop of blood, a scape of skin or even less an offender can be identified.
As for miss-carriages of justice, it is not the science that puts the wrong person in prison, it is twelve men and women. I remind you that the guilty go free daily because of a lack of evidence, that the guilty are release from prison not because they are innocent but because there is a chance, just a chance that they may be innocent.
As for needing less police on the street if a DNA data base is introduced, that's good. Less crime less police. Less spent on the police service.
Allow me to point-out that in cases where the available evidence sample is small, the dna that ends-up being tested is not the sample found at the crime scene/on the victim. A sample too small for direct testing is "amplified" by the . This produces millions of "copies" of the original sample. From this you can see that it is perfectly possible for the WRONG dna to be amplified, because the sample is very small and contamination could have occurred at any time BEFORE the crime to DURING the evidence retrieval and testing.
From you can see that getting your dna sample removed from the database is going to be hard work.
You may even like to think that your information is kept secure, well....it isn't
There have already been a number of incidents and practices which cause serious concern:
Five employees of the Forensic Science Service (FSS) have been suspended whilst allegations that they “copied, retained and/or adapted software and/or other confidential information” are investigated.
Emails supplied to GeneWatch UK as a result of a Freedom of Information request revealed that the commercial company LGC kept copies of information sent to it by the police, including individuals’ demographic details, alongside their DNA profiles and samples
In the near future, being apprehended for speeding will mean that you are called-in to have your fingerprints and a dna sample taken.
but they should look at his statist views and what is happening in the Home Office, surely one of the most incompetent of the ministries, yet, with its vision for a totally controlled society, also one of the most malign?
The problem is not that of dna sampling and retention, the problem is more WHAT will the information be used FOR in the future. The problem being that WE do not know what THEY have already planned for the future. Nor, it seems from the debate on here, do many care. Upon your own heads be it.
Orgasminator
Advances in technology often have a downside as well as an up. In 1935, IBM were the proud manufacturers of a machine called the Hollerith, which recorded details of individuals on punched cards. It was widely used worldwide for census data, and to count votes in elections. It enabled the Nazis to carry out a nation-wide census in 1933 and 1939. It specifically identified Jews and Gypsies on those cards. At least 6 million of the people so identified didn’t make it to 1945.
The technology is neutral, but the uses to which it is put are subject to the vagaries of government, and please no one say “it could never happen here” !!!
The technology is neutral, but the uses to which it is put are subject to the vagaries of government, and please no one say “it could never happen here” !!!
Sex God
Quote by markz
I have no doubt that if the ipswich murderer had not been caught he would have carried on, so the dna database has saved lives. My own worries about the system infringing on my civil liberties are meaningless in comparison with the value of a life, so I agree with the database.
wb stranger
Sex God
No-one should be convicted on the strength of a single piece of evidence. Ever.
A smear of skin cells means bugger all. A fingerprint means not much. A fibre that is the same as my (and hundreds of others) jumper is irrelevant. But all three on the body of a murder victim is highly unlikely to have come from more than one person. Add a reliable witness to me running away with blood on my shirt and you've got me. But any one on their own should never convict someone.
BTW. Has it been mentioned that if you are arrested then cleared - exonerated completely - you CANNOT have your DNA record removed from the database.
Personally I would chip babies (stops them getting snatched) and everyone would be on the DNA database. But the rules on evidence quality, quantity and source should be far stricter.
A smear of skin cells means bugger all. A fingerprint means not much. A fibre that is the same as my (and hundreds of others) jumper is irrelevant. But all three on the body of a murder victim is highly unlikely to have come from more than one person. Add a reliable witness to me running away with blood on my shirt and you've got me. But any one on their own should never convict someone.
BTW. Has it been mentioned that if you are arrested then cleared - exonerated completely - you CANNOT have your DNA record removed from the database.
Personally I would chip babies (stops them getting snatched) and everyone would be on the DNA database. But the rules on evidence quality, quantity and source should be far stricter.
Quote by foxylady2209
BTW. Has it been mentioned that if you are arrested then cleared - exonerated completely - you CANNOT have your DNA record removed from the database.
What would be the point in making rules of evidence stricter, when the police and forensic services pay no attention to the existing rules ?
I have been concerned about certain aspects of DNA evidence for several years. There would seem to be no way of stopping the insertion of evidence at a later time. Also, the use of dna evidence in cases many decades old would seem to have major problems, not least is that evidence was "bagged" together and not kept separate, which would lead to cross-contamination.
Sex God
Quote by JTS
BTW. Has it been mentioned that if you are arrested then cleared - exonerated completely - you CANNOT have your DNA record removed from the database.
What would be the point in making rules of evidence stricter, when the police and forensic services pay no attention to the existing rules ?
I have been concerned about certain aspects of DNA evidence for several years. There would seem to be no way of stopping the insertion of evidence at a later time. Also, the use of dna evidence in cases many decades old would seem to have major problems, not least is that evidence was "bagged" together and not kept separate, which would lead to cross-contamination.
Most pre-80's evidence was kept dry not frozen. DNA is destroyed by drying. I think it can only be of use to early frozen samples that were too small to test at the time.
Quote by markz
I have no doubt that if the ipswich murderer had not been caught he would have carried on, so the dna database has saved lives. My own worries about the system infringing on my civil liberties are meaningless in comparison with the value of a life, so I agree with the database.
:shock: :shock: :shock: are you actually back????????????????????????
I think it’s a really bad idea. Yes you can say it will catch people quicker and so on but its big brother.. This stuff is as only as good as the people controlling it. Its not that far fetched to think if some one wants you framed then it can be done with out you even been there, just a few cells at a crime scene and your done for ! It’s all a bit minority report for my likening. You’re making too much of a noise on the political scene or you object a little too loud then that’s it. Like I say it only as good at the weakest link in the chain and that link is man..
Quote by Amiamo-il-sessoTo frame you right now all I need to do is break into your home take a hair or two from your hair brush come. Make sure you have no one to place you somewhere else. Plant the hairs, may be leave a glass with your finger prints on it, hope they will be found and then drop your name to the police. There is no need for a database.
I think it’s a really bad idea. Yes you can say it will catch people quicker and so on but its big brother.. This stuff is as only as good as the people controlling it. Its not that far fetched to think if some one wants you framed then it can be done with out you even been there, just a few cells at a crime scene and your done for ! It’s all a bit minority report for my likening. You’re making too much of a noise on the political scene or you object a little too loud then that’s it. Like I say it only as good at the weakest link in the chain and that link is man..
Quote by JTS
Many old violent cases are solved by a DNA sample taken due to an arrest for a completely separate crime today. It is not the fact that the criminal is deterd but the fact that the criminal is taken off the street before committing further crimes. How many lives could a data base have save in the last ten years? How much crime prevented by locking criminals up? How many of us would not have come home to a ransacked home?
Yes the TV show CSI does stretch the abilities of science. The fact remains if you have a drop of blood, a scape of skin or even less an offender can be identified.
As for miss-carriages of justice, it is not the science that puts the wrong person in prison, it is twelve men and women. I remind you that the guilty go free daily because of a lack of evidence, that the guilty are release from prison not because they are innocent but because there is a chance, just a chance that they may be innocent.
As for needing less police on the street if a DNA data base is introduced, that's good. Less crime less police. Less spent on the police service.
Allow me to point-out that in cases where the available evidence sample is small, the dna that ends-up being tested is not the sample found at the crime scene/on the victim. A sample too small for direct testing is "amplified" by the . This produces millions of "copies" of the original sample. From this you can see that it is perfectly possible for the WRONG dna to be amplified, because the sample is very small and contamination could have occurred at any time BEFORE the crime to DURING the evidence retrieval and testing.
From you can see that getting your dna sample removed from the database is going to be hard work.
You may even like to think that your information is kept secure, well....it isn't
There have already been a number of incidents and practices which cause serious concern:
Five employees of the Forensic Science Service (FSS) have been suspended whilst allegations that they “copied, retained and/or adapted software and/or other confidential information” are investigated.
Emails supplied to GeneWatch UK as a result of a Freedom of Information request revealed that the commercial company LGC kept copies of information sent to it by the police, including individuals’ demographic details, alongside their DNA profiles and samples
In the near future, being apprehended for speeding will mean that you are called-in to have your fingerprints and a dna sample taken.
but they should look at his statist views and what is happening in the Home Office, surely one of the most incompetent of the ministries, yet, with its vision for a totally controlled society, also one of the most malign?
The problem is not that of dna sampling and retention, the problem is more WHAT will the information be used FOR in the future. The problem being that WE do not know what THEY have already planned for the future. Nor, it seems from the debate on here, do many care. Upon your own heads be it.
Gene amplification is no longer excepted in many courts, a mistake in my view. Not for an scientific reason, it is based on what goes on in your body billions on times in your life. That is how you come to form the complete body form one cell. The original sample is copied. The original sample proves there was some kind of contact. It is twelve men and women who put that in context and determine it's value as evidence.
yep, im all for it, silly comments about refund of taxes because the police will have less to do is rubbish.!
The crims still have to go through an interview and legal process before getting to court. The whole process costs the taxpayer a fortune, mainly in defence costs.
If your law abiding whats the problem?
I agree with the comment that this coupled with other technology could save the country a fortune, preventing the likes of gypsies and immigrants using several identities to claim benefits- now thats an abuse of tax payers money.!
The crims still have to go through an interview and legal process before getting to court. The whole process costs the taxpayer a fortune, mainly in defence costs.
If your law abiding whats the problem?
I agree with the comment that this coupled with other technology could save the country a fortune, preventing the likes of gypsies and immigrants using several identities to claim benefits- now thats an abuse of tax payers money.!
