Knife Crime

5 Jul 2008

I suspect that the press is making a lot over every single incident of knife crime/violent crime that occurs lately but there does seem to be a lot of it happening at present...
Young men being stabbed by gangs and even one young man who was tied to a tree,forced to drink petrol and then set on fire :shock:
What is happening to the country ??
And more importantly what can be done to stop it ??
I have no ideas other than to give much stiffer sentences dunno

but its a fact that something has to be done soon....

5 Jul 2008

stiffer sentences would be idea but not even death sentence has reduced crimes in the states.
the situation is serously out of hand,the govt and the police need to do more but the source of all this goes back to schools, their is absolute no discipline in school nowadays the kids seem to think the law is protecting them,the teachers are not even allowed to raise voice at unruly kids
i wish celebrates would hold up rallies and campgains to talk to these kids who look to them as role models
prevetion is better than cure!

5 Jul 2008

Interesting you mention the lack of discipline in schools....
Maybe there should be more at home as well dunno

I'm thinking out loud really as I said I have no solutions but it really worries me especially as I have 2 kids who will be wanting more and more freedom as the grow older and to be honest I'm loath to let them out of my sight :-(

5 Jul 2008

There's a simple solution to solving knife crime... give 'em guns! :twisted:

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
Interesting you mention the lack of discipline in schools....
Maybe there should be more at home as well
I'm thinking out loud really as I said I have no solutions but it really worries me especially as I have 2 kids who will be wanting more and more freedom as the grow older and to be honest I'm loath to let them out of my sight :-(

very true we must put more effort as parents to maintain discipline,but the new govt policies is even against parents smacking their kids,we seem to be in a loose loose situation
18 knifed since january

5 Jul 2008

Until we stop giving children rights beyond what they are capable of understanding, and start punishing them when they do wrong this will never go away. We remove the right of adults to discipline a child, parent, teacher or police officer makes no difference, these days the child knows that they cannot be punished in any meaningful way
We sit in the middle ground of our self-inflicted PC world and fear to offend anyone and in so doing we offend everyone. Until we stop giving people rights they neither deserve nor understand, until we stop thinking respect should be given instead of earned, until we punish the wrongdoer rather than the victim this will go on. We promote the rights of the individual, without attaching any social responsibility to them, and are shocked when no responsibility is shown.
Young people have always felt that the world owes them something and that they are somehow within their rights to take what they want, but it was in the past tempered with the knowledge that the price of such arrogance was severe. This is no longer true. We give our children full rights and powers of protection without demanding anything in return. We expect them to behave within our rules but give them the freedom to ignore any they choose to, only for us to show surprise when they do just that.
We feed them on a diet of mindless violence via computer games, music and films and are shocked when they glory in the violence they use as entertainment. We place the shallow and talent less on pedestals and laud them as role models, fostering the belief that celebrity and wealth is all that is important, while the method of achieving it matters not one bit.
We have no heroes anymore. Those we should look up to cheat steal and lie then hide behind the laws that are supposed to punish them. Those that are punished are then invited onto daytime TV and the gossip rags to tell their story and receive huge rewards for so doing. The heroes of the young are shallow money orientated and self-indulgent. Kids aspire to be reality TV stars, WAGS or Gangsters. The idea of selflessness is ridiculed and derided. The cult of self is all powerful. Give one of these young people a knife and ten more will carry one for protection, or to look hard or for respect. Put ten knives in a fight and people will get killed.
Now I know these are generalisations, but the thing with a generalisation, is in general it’s not too far from the truth.
Disclaimer: I know not all young people are like this, but they are not the ones generally doing the stabbing.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker
Until we stop giving children rights beyond what they are capable of understanding, and start punishing them when they do wrong this will never go away. We remove the right of adults to discipline a child, parent, teacher or police officer makes no difference, these days the child knows that they cannot be punished in any meaningful way

Shireen and I only said the other day that there are too many rights being bestowed on children that they have little or no understanding of..

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
There's a simple solution to solving knife crime... give 'em guns! :twisted:

Oddly enough that has worked to a degree in America, where gun crime in certain states has fallen dramatically. Some states now have laws that allow citizens with lawfully held guns to carry them concealed or as in Texas openly. They have also given citizens the right of using them in self defence. Mugging a defenceless person is no longer quite so cut and dried.
mind you stopping someone late at night and asking for directions could get a whole lot more interesting too :shock:

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Phuckers
stiffer sentences would be idea but not even death sentence has reduced crimes in the states. <snip>

Thats a very hard statement to prove, considering that the States have had the death penalty since their inception, how can we say that it has not reduced crime? We don't know how much crime there would be without it.
Its a bit like the gun debate, when they banned law abiding citizens from leagaly owning guns in a lawful, controlled and accountable way they used the excuse that it would reduce gun crime.
since the abolition of legal ownership gun crime has increased by over 400% well that worked then didn't it rolleyes

I think the whole problem goes far far deeper.
When I was a youngster, we were given knives by our parents :shock: I know this will shock some of the younger parents reading this, yes we were given knives, we used them for all kinds of things from building dens to sharpening pencils, did we ever cut ourselves? course we did, its how we learned to be more careful in future. Did the thought of using our knives on another person ever cross our mind? Not for an instant.
I was taught how to handle firearms at the age of 12, shotguns, rifles and handguns, I have always had a healthy respect for them because at an early age i had seen the devastating effect they can have. Did it ever occur to me to turn a gun on another person? not for an instant. oh and just as an aside, at that time it was quite accepted and an ordinary daily event to go to your local market and buy a shotgun off the stall without the requirement of any kind of checks, licenses etc.
A friend of mine was in a totally horrified state recently when he overheard his 13 year old in an argument with a friend say "I'll stab you in the f*****g throat" :shock:
I don't think we have to look very far to see what has nurtured this cult of violence and lack of respect for the sanctity of life has come from, just turn on your TV rent a dvd or spend five minute watching your kids play that games consul.
I know it sounds like a cop out and I know there are millions of kids out there who have been subjected to visual violent stimulus on the above without them wanting to go out and stab someone, but I feel that the desensitizations to violence all these things cause must have some effect.
Discipline has to a large part of the solution. not sure about harsher sentences, but certainly a far harsher regime within our schools and penal institutions would go a long way towards making people think twice before over stepping the mark.
However politically incorrect it may seem, the only way we will get anywhere near a solution is to re-introduce a fear of the consequences of our actions.
I didn't act up at school because I knew, without a doubt that if i was caught the consequences would be painful indeed, I didn't misbehave out of school because I knew that if my dad found out I would be horsewhipped.
Just as an aside, since the "concealed carry" law was passed in Arizona street crime has fallen by 80% dunno

5 Jul 2008

bloody hell Stormy, I could have saved myself a whole shed load of typing rolleyes

Well said though :thumbup:

5 Jul 2008

stormwalker and pete_sw i totally agree with your statements but of course pete_sw i cant justice my quoted line but remember the sentencing for possesing knife got incresed to 5 years not long ago yet the increase of knife crime has not reduced

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Phuckers
stormwalker and pete_sw i totally agree with your statements but of course pete_sw i cant justice my quoted line but remember the sentencing for possesing knife got incresed to 5 years not long ago yet the increase of knife crime has not reduced

Hence my comment re: the requirement for a much tougher regime once inside. We have to reintroduce a "fear" of going to prison, having worked in the field I feel I am qualified to make this statement.
When you know that if you go down you will be assured of a roof over your head, three square meals, a TV, a play station, recreational facilities including pool and snooker, pingpong tables, fully equipped gym's no requirement to work for a living, pocket money to spend on luxuries such as shower gel, tobacco, sweets and skin care products :shock: and have the knowledge that if anyone in authority as much as looks at you the wrong way you can squeal like a stuck pig and the whole might of the human rights lobby will come crashing down upon the hapless soul who you think might have offended you in some way then you really are not going to be that bothered are you?
Add to that the fact that you are probably mixing with a group of peers to whom a stretch inside becomes a badge of honor and you have a recipe for disaster.
If we make the punishments instill enough fear of retribution we will go a long way not only to solve the curent problem, but will also help to very rapidly reduce the prison population and the tax burden that it bears on all of us.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Steve
I suspect that the press is making a lot over every single incident of knife crime/violent crime that occurs lately but there does seem to be a lot of it happening at present...
Young men being stabbed by gangs and even one young man who was tied to a tree,forced to drink petrol and then set on fire :shock:
What is happening to the country ??
And more importantly what can be done to stop it ??
I have no ideas other than to give much stiffer sentences but its a fact that something has to be done soon....

the stiffer sentences solution would only be a deterrant if the courts actually gave out the stiffest ones possible....
I did a bit of digging into this as I was doing it for a project
We all know that the carrying of a knife is a criminal offence, you can actually get up to a 5 year sentence for carrying with intent....
but last year.... do you know how many people were sentenced to the maximum..... of all the thousand of cases they could have brought....
eight!!!!!
I would be as stiff with knife crime as I would with a gun.... I don't accept the self defence arguement if you are outside of your home,
what would I do........ one last national amnasty to hand them all in, turn them all over.....
for the likes of ceremonial knives... make people have to register them....
then after that...... anyone caught carrying a knife and doesn't have a bloody good excuse gets 5 years... no ifs, no buts, no exceptions

5 Jul 2008

Do more to sort these kids out and stop them getting into gang violence in the first place.

5 Jul 2008

yUntil we stop giving children rights beyond what they are capable of understanding, and start punishing them when they do wrong this will never go away. We remove the right of adults to discipline a child, parent, teacher or police officer makes no difference, these days the child knows that they cannot be punished in any meaningful way
We sit in the middle ground of our self-inflicted PC world and fear to offend anyone and in so doing we offend everyone. Until we stop giving people rights they neither deserve nor understand, until we stop thinking respect should be given instead of earned, until we punish the wrongdoer rather than the victim this will go on. We promote the rights of the individual, without attaching any social responsibility to them, and are shocked when no responsibility is shown.
Young people have always felt that the world owes them something and that they are somehow within their rights to take what they want, but it was in the past tempered with the knowledge that the price of such arrogance was severe. This is no longer true. We give our children full rights and powers of protection without demanding anything in return. We expect them to behave within our rules but give them the freedom to ignore any they choose to, only for us to show surprise when they do just that.
We feed them on a diet of mindless violence via computer games, music and films and are shocked when they glory in the violence they use as entertainment. We place the shallow and talent less on pedestals and laud them as role models, fostering the belief that celebrity and wealth is all that is important, while the method of achieving it matters not one bit.
We have no heroes anymore. Those we should look up to cheat steal and lie then hide behind the laws that are supposed to punish them. Those that are punished are then invited onto daytime TV and the gossip rags to tell their story and receive huge rewards for so doing. The heroes of the young are shallow money orientated and self-indulgent. Kids aspire to be reality TV stars, WAGS or Gangsters. The idea of selflessness is ridiculed and derided. The cult of self is all powerful. Give one of these young people a knife and ten more will carry one for protection, or to look hard or for respect. Put ten knives in a fight and people will get killed.
Now I know these are generalisations, but the thing with a generalisation, is in general it’s not too far from the truth.
Disclaimer: I know not all young people are like this, but they are not the ones generally doing the stabbing.
Bloody hell Stormy, I think I love you worship

I'll be back to this when I can see the screen properly blink

However, when there are kids out there who are so adept at manipulating the system that the parent's can't chastise them it's only going to get worse. We have a society where a parent can lay down rules, a child can say "F*** that" and the parent has no resources to combat the behaviour.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by winchwench
We have a society where a parent can lay down rules, a child can say "F*** that" and the parent has no resources to combat the behaviour.

Actually there is an alternative. I chose to ignore all this political correctness bollocks by taking a rather fast moving hand to my youngest's ass and thighs when she overstepped the boundaries of good behaviour. Her response, as I'm a dad who doesn't live with her, was to report the fact to her school social worker who in turn reported the 'child abuse' to her boss. I in turn received several phone calls warning me that it was an offence. They in turn received several epithets from me , including "fuck you, I'm her Dad and if I choose that way to punish her then that's what I'll do. If you don't like it then arrest me". Strangely enough I heard nothing else on the matter.
For those concerned that I may be physically assaulting a young child, she was just 15 at the time. The punishment she got was for attempting to physically bully another kid at school. My technique was to let her know what it's like to feel bullied and to see if she liked it. I made it quite clear that I wasn't teaching her how to bully.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by flower411
stormwalker and pete_sw i totally agree with your statements but of course pete_sw i cant justice my quoted line but remember the sentencing for possesing knife got incresed to 5 years not long ago yet the increase of knife crime has not reduced

Hence my comment re: the requirement for a much tougher regime once inside. We have to reintroduce a "fear" of going to prison, having worked in the field I feel I am qualified to make this statement.
When you know that if you go down you will be assured of a roof over your head, three square meals, a TV, a play station, recreational facilities including pool and snooker, pingpong tables, fully equipped gym's no requirement to work for a living, pocket money to spend on luxuries such as shower gel, tobacco, sweets and skin care products :shock: and have the knowledge that if anyone in authority as much as looks at you the wrong way you can squeal like a stuck pig and the whole might of the human rights lobby will come crashing down upon the hapless soul who you think might have offended you in some way then you really are not going to be that bothered are you?
Add to that the fact that you are probably mixing with a group of peers to whom a stretch inside becomes a badge of honor and you have a recipe for disaster.
If we make the punishments instill enough fear of retribution we will go a long way not only to solve the curent problem, but will also help to very rapidly reduce the prison population and the tax burden that it bears on all of us.
Prison as punishment !!! :shock:
My god man, whatever will you think of next ??
You`ll be suggesting that people who defend themselves against the poor little misunderstood burglar should get off scot free !!!
Where will it all end ??? rolleyes

If that wasn't so true it'd be funny wink

Not just as a punishment, we need to find a way of re-introducing the element of shame associated with it.
Some elements of our society think its 'big' to flout the law, they think its 'hard' to carry a knife or a gun. macho to be a gang member. We (meaning society) need to find ways of shaming their behavior, ridiculing their gangs and violent culture. Anything that will make them think, bloody hell, I'm not doing that, look what will happen if I get caught.
I take your point though, what kind of a world is it where the innocent get punished and the guilty molly coddled.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Pete_sw
Some elements of our society think its 'big' to flout the law, they think its 'hard' to carry a knife or a gun. macho to be a gang member. We (meaning society) need to find ways of shaming their behavior, ridiculing their gangs and violent culture.

I do that every time I see some wanker with a hoody trying to do an imitation of someone with arthritic fingers and a gangsta rap.

5 Jul 2008

a 12yr old girl sued her dad for grounding her after she was punished for posting her pics on a website,she won the case. thats just evidence who is running the country....labour seem to pass new laws every week since they came to power

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut

Some elements of our society think its 'big' to flout the law, they think its 'hard' to carry a knife or a gun. macho to be a gang member. We (meaning society) need to find ways of shaming their behavior, ridiculing their gangs and violent culture.

I do that every time I see some wanker with a hoody trying to do an imitation of someone with arthritic fingers and a gangsta rap.
Careful Peanut.....thats too much generalisation. My favourite sweatshirt has a hood which I do actually use if the weather dictates ....I am 43, 5ft 1 and can be quite young looking sometimes....I wouldnt like to be labelled and put in a box because of my sweatshirt thanks wink

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard

Some elements of our society think its 'big' to flout the law, they think its 'hard' to carry a knife or a gun. macho to be a gang member. We (meaning society) need to find ways of shaming their behavior, ridiculing their gangs and violent culture.

I do that every time I see some wanker with a hoody trying to do an imitation of someone with arthritic fingers and a gangsta rap.
Careful Peanut.....thats too much generalisation. My favourite sweatshirt has a hood which I do actually use if the weather dictates ....I am 43, 5ft 1 and can be quite young looking sometimes....I wouldnt like to be labelled and put in a box because of my sweatshirt thanks wink

It's not a generalisation if one reads beyond the word "hoody". It's actually quite specific.

5 Jul 2008

Anyone been watching the Disarming Britain series on Channel 4?
Been quite interesting.
The Street Weapons Commission are also inviting written submissions from people who have ideas on how to tackle street crime (there is a remit for this).
There is also a blog if anyone is interested... its an interesting site with lots of links and information.
For those who live in London, there is a pilot (in certain areas only at the moment - extended to Tower Hamlets through September) ran by Crime Stoppers for young people to *shop a stabber*, they can text information to CS about anyone who is carrying a knife and its anonymous! Perhaps encourage your children to use it?

5 Jul 2008

No Peanut what your statement says to me is that you are saying that you ridicule anyone you see in the street wearing a hoody and doing or mimicking rap. Or have I got that wrong ? These youngsters are peoples children and you as an adult are surely not setting a good example if you are ridiculing them before they have done anything wrong if I have read this correctly and havn't got it all arse upwards, which I must admit I do occasionally.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard
No Peanut what your statement says to me is that you are saying that you ridicule anyone you see in the street wearing a hoody and doing or mimicking rap. Or have I got that wrong ? These youngsters are peoples children and you as an adult are surely not setting a good example if you are ridiculing them before they have done anything wrong if I have read this correctly and havn't got it all arse upwards, which I must admit I do occasionally.

No I don't ridicule people simply wearing hoodies, but yes I do ridicule white kids / black kids / sky-blue pink kids looking like prats and trying to make themselves look like US gangstas from Westwood and thinking it looks cool. That narrow it down for you?

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
We have a society where a parent can lay down rules, a child can say "F*** that" and the parent has no resources to combat the behaviour.

Actually there is an alternative. I chose to ignore all this political correctness bollocks by taking a rather fast moving hand to my youngest's ass and thighs when she overstepped the boundaries of good behaviour. Her response, as I'm a dad who doesn't live with her, was to report the fact to her school social worker who in turn reported the 'child abuse' to her boss. I in turn received several phone calls warning me that it was an offence. They in turn received several epithets from me , including "fuck you, I'm her Dad and if I choose that way to punish her then that's what I'll do. If you don't like it then arrest me". Strangely enough I heard nothing else on the matter.
For those concerned that I may be physically assaulting a young child, she was just 15 at the time. The punishment she got was for attempting to physically bully another kid at school. My technique was to let her know what it's like to feel bullied and to see if she liked it. I made it quite clear that I wasn't teaching her how to bully.
I must just say in answer to this though that the child of one of my relatives was brought home by the police one night and said child started spouting off about what his father could and could not do to him and he was quickly put straight by the police officer that if his father needed to use reasonable force to chastise him then the police certainly wouldnt have a problem with it.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard
I must just say in answer to this though that the child of one of my relatives was brought home by the police one night and said child started spouting off about what his father could and could not do to him and he was quickly put straight by the police officer that if his father needed to use reasonable force to chastise him then the police certainly wouldnt have a problem with it.

These kids seem to forget that a lot of Police staff are parents themselves and don't necessarily agree with this PC bullshit that is having the effect of declining discipline and increasing juvenile crime.

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Peanut
I must just say in answer to this though that the child of one of my relatives was brought home by the police one night and said child started spouting off about what his father could and could not do to him and he was quickly put straight by the police officer that if his father needed to use reasonable force to chastise him then the police certainly wouldnt have a problem with it.

These kids seem to forget that a lot of Police staff are parents themselves and don't necessarily agree with this PC bullshit that is having the effect of declining discipline and increasing juvenile crime.
:thumbup:

5 Jul 2008

Quote by fabio
I suspect that the press is making a lot over every single incident of knife crime/violent crime that occurs lately but there does seem to be a lot of it happening at present...
Young men being stabbed by gangs and even one young man who was tied to a tree,forced to drink petrol and then set on fire :shock:
What is happening to the country ??
And more importantly what can be done to stop it ??
I have no ideas other than to give much stiffer sentences but its a fact that something has to be done soon....

the stiffer sentences solution would only be a deterrant if the courts actually gave out the stiffest ones possible....
I did a bit of digging into this as I was doing it for a project
We all know that the carrying of a knife is a criminal offence, you can actually get up to a 5 year sentence for carrying with intent....
but last year.... do you know how many people were sentenced to the maximum..... of all the thousand of cases they could have brought....
eight!!!!!
I would be as stiff with knife crime as I would with a gun.... I don't accept the self defence arguement if you are outside of your home,
what would I do........ one last national amnasty to hand them all in, turn them all over.....
for the likes of ceremonial knives... make people have to register them....
then after that...... anyone caught carrying a knife and doesn't have a bloody good excuse gets 5 years... no ifs, no buts, no exceptions
Just to clarify the bold bits...
It is perfectly legal to carry a knife in the uk provided it is a non locking blade of less that long and perfectly legal to carry a longer fixed blade knife with good reason cracking bit of legislation that, lets let everyone use knives that close unexpectedly and chop their fingers off. I cant wait for someone to sue the government for loss of fingers due to stupid laws
As for ceremonial knives you can carry one if it part of national dress or for religious or ceremonial purposes, so full Highland dress and a Skein Dubh in your sock is fine.
As for the bit in blue,what's the difference where you are when you are attacked? you will be in just as much danger in a car park as in your own kitchen. confused

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Firelizard

Some elements of our society think its 'big' to flout the law, they think its 'hard' to carry a knife or a gun. macho to be a gang member. We (meaning society) need to find ways of shaming their behavior, ridiculing their gangs and violent culture.

I do that every time I see some wanker with a hoody trying to do an imitation of someone with arthritic fingers and a gangsta rap.
Careful Peanut.....thats too much generalisation. My favourite sweatshirt has a hood which I do actually use if the weather dictates ....I am 43, 5ft 1 and can be quite young looking sometimes....I wouldnt like to be labelled and put in a box because of my sweatshirt thanks wink

:shock:

5 Jul 2008

Quote by Stormwalker

Some elements of our society think its 'big' to flout the law, they think its 'hard' to carry a knife or a gun. macho to be a gang member. We (meaning society) need to find ways of shaming their behavior, ridiculing their gangs and violent culture.

I do that every time I see some wanker with a hoody trying to do an imitation of someone with arthritic fingers and a gangsta rap.
Careful Peanut.....thats too much generalisation. My favourite sweatshirt has a hood which I do actually use if the weather dictates ....I am 43, 5ft 1 and can be quite young looking sometimes....I wouldnt like to be labelled and put in a box because of my sweatshirt thanks wink

:shock:

You can laugh as much as you like, but you don't get as many PM's as me due to your youthful looks and your captivating charm do you lol

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