National ID Cards

18 Jul 2005

I'm sure how most people stand on I.D cards but both me and matt are against them and im not going to write a huge post on why as this link says it all - worth a look! there is a pledge on there that has over 10,00 signatures xxxx
Mod edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

18 Jul 2005

I haven't got a problem with them. Bring them on!!
I HAVE got a problem with the website being posted here though. Just going to remove it.. if people want it then PM Krazykayaker please.

18 Jul 2005

We've had ID books in South Africa for donkies years. I don't see the problem. People getting paranoid about big brother...tutt, tutt. BB' s watching you anyway. See how much footage they've got on those bombers? As long as you've got nothing to hide, what's the problem? dunno

18 Jul 2005

Same as above......whats the big deal about ID cards,if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry, besides its not ID cards that Big Brother is all about, that is what CCTV is all about,anyway won't these cards also carry your medical details now that may save your life one day!!
I think there are more important things to worry about.

18 Jul 2005

Quote by Libra+Love
We've had ID books in South Africa for donkies years. I don't see the problem. People getting paranoid about big brother...tutt, tutt. BB' s watching you anyway. See how much footage they've got on those bombers? As long as you've got nothing to hide, what's the problem?

I agree, ID helps to prove who you are and also to prove who your not, possibly saving a whole lot of trouble. We are being monitored anyway, credit cards, CCTV, internet monitoring, tons of things are already there. Carrying a card saying yr name and address etc. doesnt give any more info than they already know. Id also be happy to have my photo on my credit card, anything to help combat crime which costs us millions.

18 Jul 2005

sorry... another one here who you are not going to get any arguement from me either...
have them in the states........ and i can't see what the problem is???
if you carry a card as a driving licence..... i don't see a problem with an I.D card
sean xxxxxxx

18 Jul 2005

Photos used to be on credit cards/cheque guarantee cards until about 2 years ago. No-one bothered to look at them!! :shock: PIN and chip is much more secure anyway.
As for ID cards - as GHC said, we are tracked every day anyway. Mobile phones can pinpoint us each time we make or receive a call. Use of credit/debit cards does the same. CCTV cameras do the same. What's the hassle in proving your name and address. What is the photo driving licence but an ID card with a different name??
Even E111 cards are just about to be cards which last indefinitely. HOW many cards do we need, it's like carrying a BHS Choice card, a Boots Advantage card, a Sainsbury's Nectar Reward card, a Tesco's what-ever-it's called card... businesses tracking and recording your purchases.
I took part in the UK trial of biometric passports - again, no hassle and it COULD contain enough information to help you out of a hole sometime.
If you don't want tracked then use cash all the time, use public telephone call boxes and never ever use a store card for points. Simple.
cool

8-)

18 Jul 2005

I am against them on the principle that I live in a free country and i don't HAVE to go around proving to the state who I am on demand.
We as "citizens" , have rights in this country. If an ID card is introduced, some of those basic rights will be eroded. Some of the above replies said things about crime and terrorism. Fair enough. But ID cards wouldn't have stopped the bombings in London. Criminals are going to love ID cards as another way to make money, bootlegging them. And what criminal is going to carry their ID card?
And if a policeman stops me and asks for my ID card, which i wont carry, can he arrest me? Is that right? If I don't HAVE to carry it by law, and they summonse me to appear.... how are they going to prove it was me???
Besides. It's going to cost you a couple of hundred quid... so feck it.
Just my point of view.... keep it nice!

18 Jul 2005

WHAT rights are those postie???
:P

18 Jul 2005

Quote by postie
I am against them on the principle that I live in a free country and i don't HAVE to go around proving to the state who I am on demand.
We as "citizens" , have rights in this country. If an ID card is introduced, some of those basic rights will be eroded. Some of the above replies said things about crime and terrorism. Fair enough. But ID cards wouldn't have stopped the bombings in London. Criminals are going to love ID cards as another way to make money, bootlegging them. And what criminal is going to carry their ID card?
And if a policeman stops me and asks for my ID card, which i wont carry, can he arrest me? Is that right? If I don't HAVE to carry it by law, and they summonse me to appear.... how are they going to prove it was me???
Besides. It's going to cost you a couple of hundred quid... so feck it.
Just my point of view.... keep it nice!

With ^^^^^^ on this one .......... what's the point introducing a system if you don't have to legally carry the damn thing around....... plus........... when it's nice n hot and I'm only wearing my shorts at an open air pool attended by loads of playful swingers ........ where do I put my card??
Ah! . I know......... Angel_Chat has a very nice Card Holder / Swipe thingy on the front of her chest ....... I'll hide it there!!!

18 Jul 2005

Quote by Jags
WHAT rights are those postie???
:P

The right to live in a society and not be haarresed by government or the state when you are going about your business in a law abiding way.
The right to privacy.
the right not to be fingerprinted without being accused of a crime.
and i picked this following bit up off the NoID website.
You will not be required to use a card unless you wish to work, use the banking or health system, travel or receive benefits. As Mr Blunkett advised Parliament: â€œThe issuing of a card does not force anyone to use it, although in terms of drivers or passport users, or if services - whether public or private - required some proof of identity before expenditure was laid out, without proof of identity and therefore entitlement to do it I doubt whether non-use of it would last very
It is important to keep in mind that the card will be buttressed by a vast array of new state powers and criminal penalties. The Bill creates a score of new offences including refusal to obey an order from the Secretary of State (6(4)), failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card (13(1)), failure to renew a card (9(2)), failure to submit to fingerprinting (9(4)(b)), failure to provide information demanded by the government (9(4)(d)), failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (9(4)(a)) and failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address) (12(1)). Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence. Penalties range from Â£1,000 fine to two years imprisonment. A penalty of up to Â£2,500 can be levied for failure to attend an appointment for a scan of your fingerprints and iris. This fine can be repeated for every subsequent failure to attend.

18 Jul 2005

I have no objection to ID cards - I lived in Denmark for a few years where everyone carries an ID card for the civil registration system, which covers all government departments, so it also serves for the health service. Nobody in Denmark, however extreme their politics, objects to the system there which runs perfectly well, and makes illegal activities more difficult.
However, one thing: the ID cards in Denmark are free, it would be unthinkable to be charging for them when they are compulsory. So bring them on, but keep them free. And i would also object to commercial firms being sold access to people's details.
Mike.

18 Jul 2005

Quote by Wishmaster
plus........... when it's nice n hot and I'm only wearing my shorts at an open air pool attended by loads of playful swingers ........ where do I put my card??
Ah! . I know......... Angel_Chat has a very nice Card Holder / Swipe thingy on the front of her chest ....... I'll hide it there!!!

Wishy it's called a bikini... and if you want to hide your swipe card thingy there you'll have to keep your scissors to yourself! :lol2:

18 Jul 2005

Quote by postie
WHAT rights are those postie???
:P

The right to live in a society and not be haarresed by government or the state when you are going about your business in a law abiding way.
The right to privacy.
the right not to be fingerprinted without being accused of a crime.
and i picked this following bit up off the NoID website.
You will not be required to use a card unless you wish to work, use the banking or health system, travel or receive benefits. As Mr Blunkett advised Parliament: â€œThe issuing of a card does not force anyone to use it, although in terms of drivers or passport users, or if services - whether public or private - required some proof of identity before expenditure was laid out, without proof of identity and therefore entitlement to do it I doubt whether non-use of it would last very
It is important to keep in mind that the card will be buttressed by a vast array of new state powers and criminal penalties. The Bill creates a score of new offences including refusal to obey an order from the Secretary of State (6(4)), failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card (13(1)), failure to renew a card (9(2)), failure to submit to fingerprinting (9(4)(b)), failure to provide information demanded by the government (9(4)(d)), failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (9(4)(a)) and failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address) (12(1)). Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence. Penalties range from Â£1,000 fine to two years imprisonment. A penalty of up to Â£2,500 can be levied for failure to attend an appointment for a scan of your fingerprints and iris. This fine can be repeated for every subsequent failure to attend.
Postie, if you're going to make something compulsary you need penalties for those who don't comply. That's not infringing on your RIGHTS, it's just plain common sense. And it's one rule for all without exception.

18 Jul 2005

Quote by postie
WHAT rights are those postie???
:P

The right to live in a society and not be haarresed by government or the state when you are going about your business in a law abiding way.
The right to privacy.
the right not to be fingerprinted without being accused of a crime.

Those aren't rights Postie - privileges afforded us by Parliament which can rescind them whenever it wants, either permanently or temporarily.
At the moment we do other things for our 'safety' - wear a seat belt when in a moving car, don't jaywalk at traffic lights, drive on the left, give way at roundabouts, attend school from the ages of 5 to 16 years etc etc.
An ID card WON'T cost hundreds and it won't be an offence to not carry it. Same as car driving licence and insurance. It's illegal to not have them, not to not carry them.
GOD.. did that last sentence make sense? Too many negatives there for comfort.
:P :P
PS - see here for some of the same debate - not a site advocating for or against ID cards

Can I just add one more thing - last year I had to get a new number plate for my old car (before handing it down to a member of the family) and it was the most difficult transaction of my life. I had to produce the car log book (or whatever it's called these days) AND three other forms of ID... I don't get paper bills, I don't get paper bank statements, my passport wasn't enough cos it hasn't got my address on and my driving licence was the old paper version. Took me ages and ages and ages - had to eventually to back to the shop and logon to my bank account and BT account there and show them my bills. An ID card would have been perfect!
However, I don't mean to convert anyone to my point of view. I just don't have any objections worth the fight. And I'm happy for you all to hold your own strong views!!
cool

8-)

18 Jul 2005

I definately agree with having ID cards i have one for my job and that prevents people getting in to the base or various other things. it might even help against illegal immagrants? should reduce the amount of people getting in clubs underage or buy alcohol underage if there is a law implemented that says you must produce it on entry? it might be good.?

18 Jul 2005

Talking of Human Rights......some people may slag off our Government but there's a few countries out there i wouldn't want to live.I don't think we know how lucky we are really.

18 Jul 2005

One possible benefit I can see is that any foreign national coming to this country to either live, work or holiday should be required to obtain an ID card from a reliable and recognised GB Government source.
If it stops the buggers getting here illegally then milking our system dry when they do sneak in then I'm for it!!
.........And Angel......... my infamous scissors were on holiday on Satuday so you were quite safe .... hehehe
<Wishy swipes his card down Angel's chest and lifts Â£30 from her handbag ........ erm ...... the cash machine down the road ain't working!!!!!>

18 Jul 2005

I have nothing against ID crads. It is what goes on them that matters. As long as they are "non-intrusive" thats OK by me.
While in the Forces (Army) I was required to carry with me at all times my "MOD Form 90" forces ID card. Carried it with me for 22yrs with no problem. Miss it now if I ever park in London.
Fred

18 Jul 2005

Jumping in, I am for ID cards, but against the proposed system...
Main reason is the plan to track where you use your card in a central database. Now I understand the goverment idea of proving identity, but I don't want anyone to be able to track my lifestyle through a card...
Ok so I am paranoid, but the ability to slip away anonymously must be important to people? You will no doubt need an ID card to get a hotel room, prob soon for travel cards, and maybe other things. This is not bad in itself as it helps protect the hotel from fraud. However the goverment record every card check in a central DB, easy now to link this with other cards and look for patterns of behaviour, or people who seem to be in same places as you...
Great way to look for suspects, and how secure will this online DB really be from private eyes with friends in the police? Trying to catch out a cheating husband or wife?? If you agree or disagree with cheating does not matter, I only use that as an example of what could be done to abuse the system.
So ID cards, great. Goverment DB of my whole life, BAD!

18 Jul 2005

And how many of us have to wear an ID card at work??? Same difference really.
cool

8-)

18 Jul 2005

Not really, work pay me for my time, so I don't mind them tracking how I use it. I pay the goverment to live here, so what right have they to track me??

18 Jul 2005

Quote by tallnhairy
Not really, work pay me for my time, so I don't mind them tracking how I use it. I pay the goverment to live here, so what right have they to track me??

Government aren't tracking you - every bugger else is though!! Why should they be left out??
If I buy something 'out of my usual shopping pattern' my bank ring me up to check it's me, or else they stop the transaction and get the shop to ring them so they can talk to me to check it's me!! Happened to me twice when I bought something outrageous at a shop off my usual track - nothing 'naughty' btw.
:shock:

18 Jul 2005

Quote by tallnhairy
Not really, work pay me for my time, so I don't mind them tracking how I use it. I pay the goverment to live here, so what right have they to track me??

They have the means of tracking you now without much problem if they use the system in place.
You have a Nat Ins number, your employer uses it, your Dr uses it, the Unemployment Dept uses it, the pensions people use it. So whats the BIG deal on being tracked. It can be done and to some degree is being used at this moment.

18 Jul 2005

Quote by tallnhairy
Not really, work pay me for my time, so I don't mind them tracking how I use it. I pay the goverment to live here, so what right have they to track me??

You don't pay the government - they charge you!! Slight difference, but important. And if you don't pay they lock you up... courtesy of democracy. We licence the government to licence us. Don't blame the incumbents, blame the electorate.
kiss

18 Jul 2005

Quote by Wishmaster
One possible benefit I can see is that any foreign national coming to this country to either live, work or holiday should be required to obtain an ID card from a reliable and recognised GB Government source.
If it stops the buggers getting here illegally then milking our system dry when they do sneak in then I'm for it!!

I agree with them for this reason, and also for when it comes to underage drinking etc. The shopkeeper near me has been cautioned several times for selling drinks to underage children - and we're talking selling bottles of vodka to children as young as 12 or 13 - he wouldn't have any excuse if ID cards were in operation.
Some of the other arguments do sway me towards being a bit less enthusiastic about them though, so I'll keep my eye on the debate here smile

Quote by Wishmaster
.........And Angel......... my infamous scissors were on holiday on Satuday so you were quite safe .... hehehe
<Wishy swipes his card down Angel's chest and lifts Â£30 from her handbag ........ erm ...... the cash machine down the road ain't working!!!!!>

Whilst I'm very glad your scissors were on holiday Wishy, I'm a bit concerned at the Â£30..... it must have been someone else's handbag if you managed to find that much money in it! :lol2:

18 Jul 2005

The goverment know where you are as soon as you make a phone call you can be tracked and found on whatever you purchase obviously not cash payments. there isnt anything different about these cards than there is about drivers licence but this card like i said in my earlier reply will stop illegal immagrants or reduce them coming in to our country.

18 Jul 2005

Quote by Fred aka Medic 1
They have the means of tracking you now without much problem if they use the system in place.
You have a Nat Ins number, your employer uses it, your Dr uses it, the Unemployment Dept uses it, the pensions people use it. So whats the BIG deal on being tracked. It can be done and to some degree is being used at this moment.

True Fred, and I have no real issue with that. I think the worry is that I have to use my ID to get a hotel room, and the goverment get told. Then I hire a car, and the goverment get told. Then I buy a bus pass, and the goverment get told. Then I go to the cinema, and the goverment get told (when my ID is used to confirm my tickets reservation and age).
It is all about the amount of data they can gather, and more importantly that it is all in one place. I work with computers, trust me that todays profiling and analysis tools are already scary in what they can do. Someone with too much time can end up convincing themselves just about anything, backed by statistics...
Give all the data on peoples lives and you can start building profiles of people. Then you can start looking for people of a profile, say terrorists, based purely on the statistics. Or maybe we could target pedophiles, because this person regulary has hotel rooms at the weekends near play areas? Who knows what ideas people will come up with for the data, or who may be caught in the crossfire in the future by faulty assumptions.
As an example take operation Orb, big anti campaign based on evidence from the US. When I saw it I thought it was great, finally a big win over the sick people in the world who had used their CC to get disgusting material. Check out the latest Pc Pro in the shops and the reality turns out to be very different. Yes there was a banner on the site saying 'Child Porn' Enter / Exit, but it was not a whole screen thing as was shown to the Police here. Actually it was a 3rd party add banner, right at the bottom of the page, and only there occasionally! The rest of the page was all 'normal' porn, not underage or illigal at all.
Suddenly all these 'pedophiles' as the assumption was, turn out not to be as guilty as we thought. Oh there were some real ones, but not everyone on the list as it was suggested. How many lives were ruined by the mere association with the site and that biassed reporting of what was actually there? Early morning raids, kids in care, possible lost job, and PC being forensically examined. Just from buying a pass to some normal porn because you didnt see that some not nice stuff was hidden away somewhere else...
Large amounts of data do exist, but they are not all with the goverment. They cannot easily be abused to target groups of people, maybe wrongly, and that is how I would like it to stay smile

The ID cards with central tracking are just worrying and 1 step 2 far, ID cards with last 5 or 6 checks fine, but not my entire life thanks.

18 Jul 2005

TnH
Some valid points I will agree but most of this thread has been along the lines of what they (the Government) ""can"" do and not on what they will do.
At present you do not need an ID card to be tracked, its being done now by the police with there Automatic Registration Number recognition. I have not heard "joe public" up in arms shouting about that. Just think of the information the police get from that.
You read in newspaper nearly every day of" Identity Theft". A simple matter of going to the local graveyard for info. An ID card would stop that.
Like all systems they will have there good points as well as the bad. Lets us wait and see what the Government "will" do and not worry to much about what they "can" do.
Fred (bloody tired) lol

18 Jul 2005

Not against id cards,
What i'd like to know is who is going to look at them as the plod seem a little thin on the ground, unless of course your commiting a minor motoring offence, one thing at least the ticket they send will appear in the blink of an eye, NO not bitter at all B******S mad