Political Correctness vs Freedom of Speech

8 Sep 2005

Interesting - I am just back home having discussed this very same subject over a curry!
My own view is that while clearly we do not want to be offensive to anyone we should (note change from "must" to "should" lol

) not get stupid about this - to change the words from a nursery rhyme about a black sheep or not refer to a board that is black is indeed over the top.
My mother is chairman of a group and she refuses to be called "chair" or "chairperson" - she feels that she has achieved something and insits on being called Madam Chairman. This may sound daft I know, but she is maintainig what she sees as standards.
I do not want to start an arguement here but as Frecklebird says, as a teacher she was trained to think in a politically correct way and I wonder how much time is given to ensuring political correctness at the expense of extending teaching skills. This is only an example - the same can be said for people working in any discipline wether it be the dreaded HR or engineering so please do not accuse me of knocking teachers!
It is however interesting to note that political correctness will vary from country to country. What is seen to be wrong in the UK is seen to be normal in Holland and vice versa.
In short, yes - we have gone OTT with political correctness!
McC

8 Sep 2005

For what it's worth.....
Language and vocabulary is evolving all the time, some for the good and some bad.
Think back 30 years (you oldies!!), golliwogs on the jam labels, as a kid was very innocent as far as i was concerned. Long gone.
I remember my best mate had three or four cats, one was called , because he was brown, and Brown was an acceptable description of colour (to many) in the dim and distant past.
An how about good old Jack Smethurst and Rudolph Walker slagging each other off in 'Love Thy Neighbour' in the '70s - sambo, nig-nog, white honkey, all ok (?) then, imagine the complaints now.
No point getting worked up about it, countless examples across the spectrum, everyone will use language which they have been taught is ok, by parents, school, peers, and what they see others around them use, unfortunately the minority will not follow the accepted trend where abusive language is concerned and will tread their own path.
No offence intended in any of the words above...just examples.

8 Sep 2005

Quote by McCloggie
My mother is chairman of a group and she refuses to be called "chair" or "chairperson" - she feels that she has achieved something and insits on being called Madam Chairman. This may sound daft I know, but she is maintainig what she sees as standards.

Interesting. In my job, we always use the word "Chair", whether it be at small dept staff meetings or at large conferences. We did have a short debate about the use of the word at a meeting once that was cut short by the HoD, who said that we have no choice but to use the word "Chair" whether individuals like it or not. This raised some opposition from one person who said he didn't like being referred to as a piece of furniture, but his plea was over-riddern by a roomful of giggles lol

. Referring to anyone as Madam in my job would most probably be seen as non-PC. Thus, it goes to show that PC all depends on the context and the specific audience concerned.
I think the use of non-"sexist" language in work contexts isn't difficult.... the term, "manning" the phones for example would have been usual once whether or not the member of staff was male or female. Now, "staffing" the phones would be used instead, and is much more sensible in my view.

8 Sep 2005

ah yeah the robinsons jams and marmalades golliwog, there is a whole antique market for them now apparently.
i think most black people (well the ones i know and call friends) realise that the names used against them for racial reasons have become common and everyday slang terms and are too intelligent to be affected by them in any case......
I know that in a perfect world everyone would (and bloody well should) be equal regardless of colour or creed but some age old predjudice still seem to linger, i find a lot of the older generation to still be shockingly racist at times, im sad to say my gran can be racist, although very infrequently, but i would put that down to her upbringing and the social niavety and predjudice at the time she was growing up redface

i judge a person by there actions and words, and sometimes by the way they follow there words with actions, not on any other aspect, if i dont like you its not because your black,white or any other colour, its just cos i dont like you...... (no not you wink

)

8 Sep 2005

Well Blue I suppose that as my mother is the big chief and in her 70s she can even tell the HoDs what she wants to be called! No further information being given on the forum for obvious reasons lol

What gets me is that I keep thinking of Cynthia Payne (I have met her but that is a different storey!) but surprisingly Ma does not see the joke.
Deep down I suspect that language changes as society changes and while I may not like poitical correctness, we could also blame US television, films etc.
You should read Bill Bryson's book Made in America to see how language grows, changes and moves on through the generations and it would be wrong to rey and stop that change. The French have the Acadamie Francais which is there solely to maintain the French language and they spend their time trying to devise French words for English language inventions such as Television. computer (ordinateur), week end etc.
While this is all pretty pointless I have a sneaking respect for their efforts!
McC

8 Sep 2005

A spade is a spade .

8 Sep 2005

I donâ€™t know what to say really, or rather how to say it.
I feel this is just trivialising things, where has all the common sense gone. I canâ€™t speak for everyone.
Every one has a right to fee speech, but as I keep saying there is no such think as true free speech, there is a limit to every thing. Now letâ€™s put some perspective on this;
Rest assured that you can ask for a black coffee or a black pen or say that a board is black etc. Without us ethnic minorities getting offended because we do have sufficient grasp of the English language to understand that you are not being abusive towards us. Upon hearing a white person saying can I have a black coffee please, we wont be phoning round our fellow coloured peoples saying here this white person has called this here black coffee black, lets all start a riot in this here England init booyakasha.
Now donâ€™t be shocked but from time to time we ethnic minorities some time ask for black coffee or a black pen or say that a board is black etc too.
You may have all the right in the world to exercise your freedom and call me a f ing packi, just because I have brown skin. But I equally may have all the right in the world to exercise my freedom and not take too kindly to it, especially as im not from Pakistan.
Common sense ffs

8 Sep 2005

The main part of the problem is people without sufficient imagination who treat a reasonable desire for more sensitive language as a dogma to be superior about. Expressions such as "the blind", "the deaf", can lead to some people treating them as a load of people who are all the same, instead of individuals who are each different - hence the idea of using "people with a visual disability" etc. ...the disability is something a person HAS, not something they ARE, or something which defines them. But people who use such ways as a stick to beat others with do more harm than good.
Using "black" in expressions like black coffee is totally harmless and should not offend anyone - the objections come when "black" is used negatively, as in "black looks", "black books", "accident blackspot", which I can believe offend some, though not all.
One other problem is that fashions in what is the most acceptable expression for some things change. Apparently many black people now wish to be known as "people of colour". I find this very puzzling, for one thing "black" came into use in the seventies because "coloured" was said to be offensive. For another thing, black isn't a colour anyway, is it?
One other interesting point is that supposedly "more correct" terms for things sometimes descend into being used abusively anyway, so they in their turn need to be replaced. I read somewhere that kids were using "LD" (learning disabled) as a term of abuse when trying to insult each other!
So this is now has to be renamed the "UK Forum For Persons Who Swing", not the UK Swingers' Forum. lol

:lol:
Mike.

8 Sep 2005

Poilitical correctness is everywher these days somtime you can see somtimes you cant but its there in some respects is probably right in others its just political b.s.
Were getting to stage were people eventualy wont have the freedom of speech that we are all so accustomed to it realy is crazy

8 Sep 2005

Interesting stuff... as I am sort of involved with a local political party will not go into much detail here.
There are laws that may come into place, if people get there way.. One is that at Christmas, you will no longer be able to have a shopping bag given to you from a store with Santa on it, in case it offends people. They want to change the Easter holiday to a Spring holiday ... these are just a couple that spring to mind, and that may be made law.
Seems strange though that I can tell a joke about and English man, and Irish man and a Scottish man, and we will all laugh.. change that to any other race... mnnnn and you know what will happen.
We can also have religious humour on TV, take Dave Allan (RIP) or the vicar of Dimbldy good humour about religion..... But change them to another non Christan religion, and gawd, can you imagine what would happen...
Yup the GB has gone barking mad....

8 Sep 2005

seems like we're stuck in the middle of the idiots who somehow get paid huge amounts of money to come up with these things and the people who get large compensation payouts for being offended by what was probably an innocent and unrelated comment.
as Andy_Wolves said earlier, Wolverhampton has a very diverse mix of people who generally get on very well as everyone is in the same boat, trying to wade through the crap that comes with everyday life. occasionally everyone will balls it up and say something offensive either due to ignorance or lack of experience or just by judging a situation wrong. a quick apology usually does the trick and you learn something and move on. As i've lived in the area my entire life i have a pretty wide cross section of friends and aquaintances and guess what, they're all pretty similar people regardless of age, race or sex- don't be offensive and if you are, apologise sincerly and move on. They don't give a shit if you call a 'chalk board' an blackboard cos thats what they call it!
another thing that really bugs me is the idea that the only people that are racist are white- utter bollocks, in my experience it's probably about equal percentages in each race (its just perceived higher for white due to the higher percentage of population), see the pattern? average is a useful description to apply to all races, sexes, ages etc. Treat people with respect and you will probably find you get the same in return. Sorry if im off on a rant but it get on my tits when people try to make personal gains by antagonising everyone for no good reason.
One story springs to mind. Ian Dury relased a single called 'Spasticus Autisticus' and there was a great rush of politicians and other general useless windbags instantly condeming this foul offensive song and condeming the singer, with much debate and hurrumphing. at this point he quietly and articulatly pointed out he was half crippled by polio and wrote the song about the way these same people treated him. as usual the ones who find things most offensive have no real grasp of how it's truly perceived.
i'll stop typing now cos my fingers are bleeding

8 Sep 2005

Quote by meat2pleaseu
i'll stop typing now cos my fingers are bleeding

no chance of you being a haemophiliac i suppose dunno

always said he was a right bleeder

8 Sep 2005

Quote by johneboy
i'll stop typing now cos my fingers are bleeding

no chance of you being a haemophiliac i suppose dunno

always said he was a right bleeder
some people could find that remark offensive :kick:

9 Sep 2005

i strongly resemble that remark

9 Sep 2005

Quote by Nat
Interesting stuff... as I am sort of involved with a local political party will not go into much detail here.
There are laws that may come into place, if people get there way.. One is that at Christmas, you will no longer be able to have a shopping bag given to you from a store with Santa on it, in case it offends people. They want to change the Easter holiday to a Spring holiday ... these are just a couple that spring to mind, and that may be made law.
Seems strange though that I can tell a joke about and English man, and Irish man and a Scottish man, and we will all laugh.. change that to any other race... mnnnn and you know what will happen.

Good thread Nat and i had heard a rumour that even the name Christmas was going to be change to allow for the ethnic minorities to feel less excluded, it would be called, The Festive Period, i mean, what a bloody joke mad

, a number of my friends from school and college were Pakistani and Seek and those lucky buggers got to celebrate both theirs and ours lol

From reading the threads on this topic it appears that the whole Political Correctness thing has gotten way out of hand and is seen by a broad spectrum of people as an extreme and practically laughable way for the government to be "more caring,sharing and less overbearing"
would be good to hear from any SHeaven users who are not in the "White British" ethnic group who could share their veiws on the topic smile

9 Sep 2005

People should also consider the implications of "enforcing" political correctness.
When I lived in London, the local school decided to change Christmas one year - no Christmas tree, Christmas carols, overtly Christian decorations etc. - and change it to something like a Festival of Lights as the traditional ceremony might offend some people. There was a lot of local opposition but it went ahead anyway.
Next local elections in May guess what happened?
The sitting councillor lost his seat and a National Front candidate was duly elected!!!!!
Nobody really wanted or expected this but if the professional education/council do-gooders had left well alone then I doubt the NF man would have had any publicity let alone have been elected which meant that his very wrong views suddenly were given credence.
McC

9 Sep 2005

Quote by MikeNorth
snip....
Using "black" in expressions like black coffee is totally harmless and should not offend anyone - the objections come when "black" is used negatively, as in "black looks", "black books", "accident blackspot", which I can believe offend some, though not all.
...snip.

Here was me thinking that a 'black book' was merely a book with a black cover!
The English language (or the older version language that morphed into current English to be precise) had encounters with the colour black long before 'people of colour' (incidentally, as a white person should I refer to myself as a 'person of no colour'?) were a major factor in the British society. Many of the phrases we use now are derived from phrases and sayings used hundreds of years ago and to interpret them all as being intended to offend any current social group is ludicrous. My mother (an English teacher) told me of some of the nonsense going around when rampant feminism was active (I don't mean the sort that advocates equality for men and women but the sort that would like to maintain that men should be banned!) and the people who wanted the word 'history' changed because they thought it meant 'his story' rather than 'her story'. Now my Latin is not up to much but even I know that many words in English are derived from other languages, Latin being a key one.
As to 'the deaf'. 'the blind', 'the etc. etc.' - I have yet to encounter a blind or deaf person who didn't call themselves exactly that. If you want to find totally un-PC language learn Sign Language and talk to deaf people! I learned British Sign Langauge for a year at school and what the deaf signing teachers said to each other was extremely 'fruity' compared to the langauge normally found in school classrooms. But the label 'the ....' is so good a putting people into boxes. A friend of mine works for a council and she has told be about the efforts local government put into 'equalities'. Now much of what is done is excellent work but among the ultra-PC brigade that inhabit council equality departments there is also a tendency to place people into little boxes. There are pressure groups and interest groups for practically every ethnic, physically impaired or sexually oreintated sector you can imagine. The thing is that if you are a person who is 'eligible' to join any one of these groups then you are almost expected to participate so if you are a black, one-legged lesbian you are going to be attending interest group meetings every day of the week and not much time left to have any sort of life! (I do hope I haven't offended any people of colour, with or without a full complement of legs, whatever their sexual orientation. wink

)
A certain amount of PC-ness is good to have as there are words in current or recent usage that are offensive to many. Just because a word is commonly used without thought of its origins and probably connotations does not make it acceptable in my view. A general attitude of sexism, racism or any other -ism is not valuable to us as a society but to take that the extremes that some do and banning any word that simply denotes a colour or a physical state of being is daft. The effect of being ultra-PC seems to be that more and more people get labelled as being of a certain state (and therefore potentially offended by a word used) whcih seems to be going against the idea inherent in the PC world that we should all be considered equal no matter what our state of being.

10 Sep 2005

Quote by steanrachy
We are all adults on this site (i hope ) and as such we enjoy a certain level of freedom offered and granted us by this fine country in which we reside yes???
However, recent developments by the EU and other factions within parliament, both home and abroad seem intent on eleviating us from this right. I really dont want to sound like im getting on my soap box or taking the moral high ground, but to be told that the word BRAINSTORMING is no longer politically correct as it "excludes and alienates the more intellectualy challenged within society" is sheer lunacy.
Many of the words i (and am sure a multitude of other regular forum users) grew up with have now become obselete due to the meteoric rise in the "need to be more socially and politically tolerant and tactfull"
i mean, everyday words such as "blackboard" "handicapped" and "deaf" have been politically metomorphosised into "chalkboards" "disabled" and "hearing impaired". Now before i recieve a barrage of abuse or reprimands from anybody on the site, i would like to point out that i am categorically NOT racist,sexist,ageist, or any other of the plethora of "ist" words that have been invented for those of us who are deemed politically incorrect for our choice of words.
i know there are a few teachers (Mrs Freckledbird??) amongst the SHeaven ranks and would appreciate their viewpoint on how they have had to change their use of language to accomodate these changes, or anybody else who has encountered this, in the workplace for example..................
PS please dont pick up any of my spelling mistakes Freckledbird

Interesting thread - I believe the PC thing has gone well over the top and can be conter productive. A classic I found was a suggestion that the word dwart is wrong - it should be a person of restricted growth. As Kenny Baker who played R2D2 said 'whats wrong with being a Dwarf!'The PC thing sometimes undermines what the real issue is about - that discrimination on the grounds of race, culture, gender, sexual orientation or disability is fundamenatlly wrong in a civilised culture. Correcting words is just playing at it ...where action to combat discrimation is required from us all. Another thread asked what scares you.. for me it is the millions dying of poverty and ill health, people suffering discrimination who cannot get a full life and that a lot of peoplke have given up trying to do anything about it. .... really worrying....Blake

10 Sep 2005

Quote by freckledbird
To be honest, I haven't had to modify my language at all in the classroom, because I've only been teaching for a few years and the culture at university was as you describe Steanrachy. At the time it seemed a bit odd, but it's just a different word for some things. Language changes over time anyway; there are archaic words which at one time would have seemed 'everyday' and which have changed over time. To the people for whom they were 'everyday', the 'modern' words which replaced them, must have been viewed in much the same way as you view 'thought showers', 'chalkboards' and such.

...well said FB. Language is an organic, almost living thing, so discrete changes which help people live positively can't be a bad thing. I think it was Serendipity who earlier said it's really all about good manners. In conversations like this I invariably find myself defending 'political correctness' as it's called, which of course makes me appear like a feeble minded liberal (!), but then I remember some of the issues that started the debate in the first place..Enid Blyton books, Little Black Sambo, the Robinson's Golly & the like all seemed harmless enough 20 or 30 years ago, but most people who complain about the withdrawal of such images and texts weren't on the receving end of the jibes in the playground.

10 Sep 2005

Quote by Spongebob
Another of these Politically Correct nonsenses occurred the other week when I asked for a Black Coffee and was told that was an inappropriate and possibly racist term and that I should ask for either coffee with milk or coffee without,
WTF is that all about?

..who told you it was inappropriate Bob? I always ask for 'black' coffee, don't see any problem in that at all...don't think any black folks would confused

10 Sep 2005

Oh you so know that I am going to post a reply to this one .....................
but not whilst under the affluence of inkahol. this one will take some careful consideration........ :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

10 Sep 2005

I know I am going to open a debate up here, BUT I have to answer Aspals.
Why do you complain about Enid Blyton books? They may or may not have been standards in childrens literature but they are now historical - the main arguement against them is that they reflected middle class life in Britain in the 1950s/1960s and the same can be said even for JK Rowling as all her characters are middle Blyton wrote her books (which are all about Britain and in particular England) we did not have a multi racial community so she was representing what was then a British point of view.
Little Black Sambo as a kids' storey is a reflection of British life in India but the book (as far as I can remember) never mentions a white kid and as such is a non racial storey about an Indian boy and a tiger.
Now I do see that the book showed a somewhat paternalistic view and I am of course sorry if anyone has suffered from remarks emanating from ignorant people reading the book and making comments.
However, as people who are British (no matter which football/cricket/rugby team me may support) we should recognise and accept what is part of our history (sorry personstory)
because by trying to hide or ban or rewrite these things I believe we are gong down a dangerous road.
If people - no matter who they are or where they are from - want to be British (or indeed Dutch/French or any other european nationality) then should they not accept that country's values?
We all live in the 21st century and those people that have respecting others views are of course right. The more the do-gooding liberals (note with a small "l") try and enforce change before allowing to happen naturally the more problems we will have. Refer to my earlier post about the NF councillor.
McC

11 Sep 2005

Quote by McCloggie
I know I am going to open a debate up here, BUT I have to answer Aspals.
Why do you complain about Enid Blyton books? They may or may not have been standards in childrens literature but they are now historical - the main arguement against them is that they reflected middle class life in Britain in the 1950s/1960s and the same can be said even for JK Rowling as all her characters are middle Blyton wrote her books (which are all about Britain and in particular England) we did not have a multi racial community so she was representing what was then a British point of view.
Little Black Sambo as a kids' storey is a reflection of British life in India but the book (as far as I can remember) never mentions a white kid and as such is a non racial storey about an Indian boy and a tiger.
Now I do see that the book showed a somewhat paternalistic view and I am of course sorry if anyone has suffered from remarks emanating from ignorant people reading the book and making comments.
However, as people who are British (no matter which football/cricket/rugby team me may support) we should recognise and accept what is part of our history (sorry personstory)
because by trying to hide or ban or rewrite these things I believe we are gong down a dangerous road.
If people - no matter who they are or where they are from - want to be British (or indeed Dutch/French or any other european nationality) then should they not accept that country's values?
We all live in the 21st century and those people that have respecting others views are of course right. The more the do-gooding liberals (note with a small "l") try and enforce change before allowing to happen naturally the more problems we will have. Refer to my earlier post about the NF councillor.
McC

..I have no problem with this literature forming part of the history of British culture McCloggie, what I object to was it being used for the entertainment of impressionable children. If you read my post, the last reference I made was to the jibes I personally received in the playground, which had your children been on the receiving end of you probably would not have been happy. Just because literature has some historical value, doesn't mean it's appropriate for the entertainment of children...I don't recall Mrs Jones sitting us all down in the classroom to hear a recital of the Kama Sutra or Lady Chatterley's Lover. :shock:
As to immigrants accepting a country's values..I see no problem with that whatsoever, I myself were born here and very much consider myself British and defend the British way of life quite vociferously. But I dont think 'accepting a country's values' should extend to being comfortable allowing your 6yo children to be chased round a schoolyard being called 'wog' or 'sambo'.
As I mentioned before, debates of this nature have the tendency to polarise the opinions of posters, making the one side look like raving, right wing lunatics and the other side, sandal wearing, limp wristed communists (how many people did I offend in that sentence?!). Basically I don't think any of us are that far away in our opinions. It's about common sense and good manners and thinking about how you would wish to be treated, yourself.
I also wonder how many stories of political correctness are apocryphal. Make up something that sounds ridiculous and blame it on political correctness..it then gives credibility to people who argue that the British way of life is changing, when in fact the only changes I've made to my language, when I look back and reflect on them, I have to say are changes for the better..someone mentioned earlier the word 'spastic' which was frequently used to describe disabled people..there are many examples like these.
It's ironic having this debate on a forum for marginalised members of British society (us, swingers!)..personally I think we should also benefit from political correctness as most members of the general public would use shorthand to describe usas 'sick' or 'perverts', many references like these I've read in newspapers when referring to the swinging community...and some may be true lol!!
Let's all just keep sweet & nice on this one...I'm going to church in a bit to beg for forgiveness lol

:lol: :lol:

11 Sep 2005

Quote by alspals
I'm going to church in a bit to beg for forgiveness :lol: :lol:

Put in a good word for me will you? redface

ops: :oops:
Ta! wink

:wink:

11 Sep 2005

Quote by EagerSlut
I'm going to church in a bit to beg for forgiveness :lol: :lol:

Put in a good word for me will you? redface

ops: :oops:
Ta! wink

:wink:
..I certainly will ES...but you do know it's the Church of Pagan Mind? rotflmao

11 Sep 2005

Quote by alspals
I'm going to church in a bit to beg for forgiveness :lol: :lol:

Put in a good word for me will you? redface

ops: :oops:
Ta! wink

:wink:
..I certainly will ES...but you do know it's the Church of Pagan Mind? rotflmao

That'll suit ES better I guess! Will it be along the lines of:
"Please O patron of licentiousness heap favour on enthuisiastic person of loose behaviour" (I think that's reasonably PC - go on someone pick it apart now!)

11 Sep 2005

Quote by alspals
I'm going to church in a bit to beg for forgiveness :lol: :lol:

Put in a good word for me will you? redface

ops: :oops:
Ta! wink

:wink:
..I certainly will ES...but you do know it's the Church of Pagan Mind? rotflmao

Ooooooooooooh! Even better!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Do they do auditions? :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
:wink: :wink: smile

11 Sep 2005

Quote by westerross
I'm going to church in a bit to beg for forgiveness :lol: :lol:

Put in a good word for me will you? redface

ops: :oops:
Ta! wink

:wink:
..I certainly will ES...but you do know it's the Church of Pagan Mind? rotflmao

11 Sep 2005

Ah, good to see Alspals turn up eventually on this thread with his usual good sense. When I posted on page 2 I was hoping to see a contribution. Excellent! :thumbup:
The non sandal-wearing, non muesli-eating, non limp-wristed, non communist,
Mike.

11 Sep 2005

Quote by MikeNorth
Ah, good to see Alspals turn up eventually on this thread with his usual good sense. When I posted on page 2 I was hoping to see a contribution. Excellent! :thumbup:
The non sandal-wearing, non muesli-eating, non limp-wristed, non communist,
Mike.

gee thanks Mike...now let's all get back to higher brow pursuits like porridge knitting (oh and shagging other blokes wives and letting them do the same to ours!!)

:rotflmao: