Sexpert
Im not happy about it.
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Road Charging
It makes no difference what anyone thinks about it, chairman blair wants, chairman blair gets.
Leak the proposals via the media, wait for outrage to die down, roll it out in scotland for 12 months first, re assess and make law at 5am one commons morning after the whips have bullied our MP's and there you have it......another undemocratic farce
Leak the proposals via the media, wait for outrage to die down, roll it out in scotland for 12 months first, re assess and make law at 5am one commons morning after the whips have bullied our MP's and there you have it......another undemocratic farce
Sex God
So was signing the petition another big fat waste of time then?! 
In the case of foxhunting, .......try, try, and try again, if you dont at first sucseed, bend the rules, threaten the lords with reform and if that fails, use an out dated loophole in the law to fix something that wasnt bust and certainly isnt as important as the state of the NHS, transport, education, immigration, foreign policy, etc etc etc.
Rome, burns, fiddle
Rome, burns, fiddle
Sex God
Quote by Dirtygirlie
So was signing the petition another big fat waste of time then?!
I don't think so, opinions matter and it does no harm for the government to know what the participants a sizeable part of the population thinks.
They may ignore it and press ahead, but looking at how it could affect me, I do know that if they do that I for one would be lose more faith in their credibility on this matter than any of the other hair brained schemes that could have been put forward.
If it was one of their election promises they wouldn't have a hope in hell.
Sex God
Quote by Geminifemale
In the case of foxhunting, .......try, try, and try again, if you dont at first sucseed, bend the rules, threaten the lords with reform and if that fails, use an out dated loophole in the law to fix something that wasnt bust and certainly isnt as important as the state of the NHS, transport, education, immigration, foreign policy, etc etc etc.
Rome, burns, fiddle
Isn't this about the state of Transport? The petition contained a bundle of misleading information.
We pay for rail transport by journey why not on roads. Best way to stop the excessive congestion on our roads.
.
Sex God
do they not in france charge to use the motorways?
i am not actually against road charging per say..... but since it would cost people who use there cars more, would it not be a fairer way of doing it?? as long as if you are going to do this... you would cut the duty on fuel tax......
i am not actually against road charging per say..... but since it would cost people who use there cars more, would it not be a fairer way of doing it?? as long as if you are going to do this... you would cut the duty on fuel tax......
Oh Tune
Do you realy believe that any money raised in this way will all be spent on the roads? or on transoprt at all?
we pay a huge amount of NI tax, enough to pay all our pensions, but its been stolen to pay for something else.
All the petrol and road tax money doesnt all go to transoprt, it props up the NHS, the list goes on.
Its just one more way to suck us dry
30 million sitting ducks on Britains roads all waiting to be screwed
Do you realy believe that any money raised in this way will all be spent on the roads? or on transoprt at all?
we pay a huge amount of NI tax, enough to pay all our pensions, but its been stolen to pay for something else.
All the petrol and road tax money doesnt all go to transoprt, it props up the NHS, the list goes on.
Its just one more way to suck us dry
30 million sitting ducks on Britains roads all waiting to be screwed
Sex God
Quote by westerross
We pay for rail transport by journey why not on roads. Best way to stop the excessive congestion on our roads.
.
Well last week was half term, the roads were clear and i got to work early everyday. Obviously the answer is to charge people for driving their kids to school or make them walk/use the bus and work off some of that obesity.
If Commandant Blair and friends do just push through a bill as unpopular as this on top of an unpopular war, they may well find themselves looking for alternative employment from disgruntled voters.
Come the revolution......
Sex God
Quote by fabio
do they not in france charge to use the motorways?
i am not actually against road charging per say..... but since it would cost people who use there cars more, would it not be a fairer way of doing it?? as long as if you are going to do this... you would cut the duty on fuel tax......
This is very different, everyone would have a tracker fitted to their car and be charged by the mile, for the average motorist it would be a very large part of their annual income, not to mention the Big Brother element.
Quote by fabio
do they not in france charge to use the motorways?
i am not actually against road charging per say..... but since it would cost people who use there cars more, would it not be a fairer way of doing it?? as long as if you are going to do this... you would cut the duty on fuel tax......
They do charge in France but you have a choice, use the motorway or use the main, and possibly slower, road. Here, they are simply intending to charge for going to and from work if you work in a congested area.
Another tax, and not even a stealth tax this time.
Sex God
Quote by westerross
We pay for rail transport by journey why not on roads. Best way to stop the excessive congestion on our roads.
.
We all pay handsomely as it is without having to pay a second/third time
And we have to pay for the equipment that will track our every move :evil:
Quote by Mallock2006
And we have to pay for the equipment that will track our every move
Ignoring the hellish financial side for a moment, this is the really concerning part.
A tax on sitting in traffic burning fuel for nothing, or meandering around in a very thirsty 4x4, but that doesn't have Orwell smugly saying "I told you so" from beyond the grave? Stick it on petrol! Those who use more by driving in a manner (including traffic jams) or in a vehicle that consumes more pays more. There's no unexpected and possibly impossible to pay bill at the end of consumption, you pay before you actually consume. And there's no insidious logging of the people by the very people who are meant to represent not control them.
I do worry that the government spin machine has played this one quite well for all the outcry - There's more than a few people who seem to see congestion as something to be eradicated, and are willing to sacrifice civil liberties (maybe unwittingly) to achieve that. On a cost isse, I saw an interview last year on TV with a railway executive. He pointed out that the network was already at capacity in places, so if more people tried to cram onto already packed trains they'd put teh prices up to disuade them.
So let me get this straight. The government force people out of cars by making it too expensive. The public transport companies force people off their networks by making it too expensive.
So just how do people travel then?
Sex God
The cost of motoring has reduced significantly in real terms over recent years. Fuel efficiency of cars has improved and the frequency of servicing being examples.
And whilst one can never have an assurance that changes will be tax neutral because by the next budget it is all subject to review, it is very likely that fuel and or road tax will be abolished as part of a road user charging scheme.
Similarly, it is very unlikely that you will get a commitment to spend all money raised by a national road user charging system on transport. But that's a fundamental principle of 'taxation' in a democracy. You raise it one area and spend it in another. That said the trials that are imminent will raise money for local transport schemes because obviously the other taxes will not be adjusted for local trials.
So the argument is - 'Is it better to raise money in a way that encourages people to reduce congestion to the benefit of everybody - economically and in terms of accessibility' and then spend it where the elected government see fit - or is it better to have about the same amount of money collected in a way that doesn't achieve this? Road Tax and fuel duty don't, I can assure you.
If the government spends it in the wrong areas in the eyes of the electorate, then it will be voted out. It is not perfect but democracy (including freedom to express one's views) depends on it.
There's likely to be at least two general elections before anyone could conceivably introduce a UK wide road user charging system.
Can see I'm a lone voice in all of this but I'm happy to continue expounding my argument as long as it doesn't get personal
.
And whilst one can never have an assurance that changes will be tax neutral because by the next budget it is all subject to review, it is very likely that fuel and or road tax will be abolished as part of a road user charging scheme.
Similarly, it is very unlikely that you will get a commitment to spend all money raised by a national road user charging system on transport. But that's a fundamental principle of 'taxation' in a democracy. You raise it one area and spend it in another. That said the trials that are imminent will raise money for local transport schemes because obviously the other taxes will not be adjusted for local trials.
So the argument is - 'Is it better to raise money in a way that encourages people to reduce congestion to the benefit of everybody - economically and in terms of accessibility' and then spend it where the elected government see fit - or is it better to have about the same amount of money collected in a way that doesn't achieve this? Road Tax and fuel duty don't, I can assure you.
If the government spends it in the wrong areas in the eyes of the electorate, then it will be voted out. It is not perfect but democracy (including freedom to express one's views) depends on it.
There's likely to be at least two general elections before anyone could conceivably introduce a UK wide road user charging system.
Can see I'm a lone voice in all of this but I'm happy to continue expounding my argument as long as it doesn't get personal
.
Persoanlly I think the idea is good in principal - I'm just not sure about the whole 'tracking' issue.
As somebody that tries to use public transport as much as possible even though I have a car, I know that if fuel duty is reduced and I didn't have to pay road tax anymore, I would be paying a lot less than I am now to own/run a car.
As somebody that tries to use public transport as much as possible even though I have a car, I know that if fuel duty is reduced and I didn't have to pay road tax anymore, I would be paying a lot less than I am now to own/run a car.
Quote by meat2pleaseu
We pay for rail transport by journey why not on roads. Best way to stop the excessive congestion on our roads.
.
Well last week was half term, the roads were clear and i got to work early everyday. Obviously the answer is to charge people for driving their kids to school or make them walk/use the bus and work off some of that obesity.
If Commandant Blair and friends do just push through a bill as unpopular as this on top of an unpopular war, they may well find themselves looking for alternative employment from disgruntled voters.
Come the revolution......
The problem is, Bliar is already lined up for a new job "sorting out" the middle east along with some other notables. He, his awful wife, various children and the whole of Government couldn't give a monkeys about the state of this Country. We are just an under-class ripe for rich pickings to fund their extra-ordinary lifestyle.
Sex God
The new planned taxation would cost us a fortune....
There is the kids to take to school....(2 different schools) and then they have to be collected again...
Then there is going to work......It annoys the shit out of me that I will have to pay a tax to go to work to earn money to live that I am taxed on and everything I but with that money I am taxed on...
I drive a 4x4 :shock:
I work bloody hard to earn the money to buy it.......Pay an inflated rate of RFL because it is "enviromentaly unfriendly" yet 7.5 ton lorries and vans that are less fuel efficient and produce more in the way of emmisions pay less RFL than I do....
I have the 4x4 because it does a specific job..
It tows a caravan.....We have the caravan as it works out cheaper than paying inflated prices for holiday homes and we are away most weekends during the summer as,shock horror,I have a hobby.......
No doubt Mr Blur will want to tax that it the near future so as my last little bit of enjoyment is subject to taxation as well.....
Put it on the fuel if he is desperate to claw yet more money from us...
Of course what he could always do to save a shit load of cash is get our boys and girls out of Iraq but thats another story isnt it......
Or he could curb his own and his goverments unwarranted spending but that will never happen...
There is the kids to take to school....(2 different schools) and then they have to be collected again...
Then there is going to work......It annoys the shit out of me that I will have to pay a tax to go to work to earn money to live that I am taxed on and everything I but with that money I am taxed on...
I drive a 4x4 :shock:
I work bloody hard to earn the money to buy it.......Pay an inflated rate of RFL because it is "enviromentaly unfriendly" yet 7.5 ton lorries and vans that are less fuel efficient and produce more in the way of emmisions pay less RFL than I do....
I have the 4x4 because it does a specific job..
It tows a caravan.....We have the caravan as it works out cheaper than paying inflated prices for holiday homes and we are away most weekends during the summer as,shock horror,I have a hobby.......
No doubt Mr Blur will want to tax that it the near future so as my last little bit of enjoyment is subject to taxation as well.....
Put it on the fuel if he is desperate to claw yet more money from us...
Of course what he could always do to save a shit load of cash is get our boys and girls out of Iraq but thats another story isnt it......
Or he could curb his own and his goverments unwarranted spending but that will never happen...
Quote by Mallock2006
The new planned taxation would cost us a fortune....
There is the kids to take to school....(2 different schools) and then they have to be collected again...
Then there is going to work......It annoys the shit out of me that I will have to pay a tax to go to work to earn money to live that I am taxed on and everything I but with that money I am taxed on...
I drive a 4x4 :shock:
I work bloody hard to earn the money to buy it.......Pay an inflated rate of RFL because it is "enviromentaly unfriendly" yet 7.5 ton lorries and vans that are less fuel efficient and produce more in the way of emmisions pay less RFL than I do....
I have the 4x4 because it does a specific job..
It tows a caravan.....We have the caravan as it works out cheaper than paying inflated prices for holiday homes and we are away most weekends during the summer as,shock horror,I have a hobby.......
No doubt Mr Blur will want to tax that it the near future so as my last little bit of enjoyment is subject to taxation as well.....
Put it on the fuel if he is desperate to claw yet more money from us...
Of course what he could always do to save a shit load of cash is get our boys and girls out of Iraq but thats another story isnt it......
Or he could curb his own and his goverments unwarranted spending but that will never happen...
Unlikely they will tax caravans at the moment.. Bargaret Meckett uses one for her holidays
Sex God
Quote by GnV
Unlikely they will tax caravans at the moment.. Bargaret Meckett uses one for her holidays
And I suppose the 4x4 she uses to tow it is subsidised so she doesnt have to pay through the nose
Master of Sex
As family with a lots of vehicles we've been crying out for years for a system where we pay for our transport usage rather than our transport ownership. Just because we own a lot of "toys" why should we be penalised.?
For a long time the stalwarts on our side of the fence have been asking for increased fuel duty and scrapping of "road-tax." As already pointed out the gaz guzzling 4x4 school run vehicle would then pay fairly for its consumption and justifyably the unusued motorbike in the garage wouldn't be taxed at all.
Sadly this route seems to be littered with problems. Apparently the issuing of a road fund licence provides proof of MOT and insurance and how can you possibly tax people for use of their lawn-mower or speedboat?
Personally, it may come as no surprise, that i reckon there's summat sinister involved here. The billions of pounds that need to be spent to accomodate the hardware, software and manpower to effectively administer the massive data-streams involved from this sort of system seem a bit self defeating.
I'm sure an alternate system will be sneaked in while we're recovering from the blow of this one and we'll all happily grab it with both hands just to avoid the alternative.
Let's face it, our Transport Policy is nothing to be proud of. For years, a lack of investment has lead to a public transport system that is unattractive and regarded as "lower class." The great motoring god has carved up the country to generate traffic free routes that actually create more traffic.
If we're not careful we're going to end up like the americans, totally car dependant and fat, and in a country that can't accomodate that philosophy.
I'm sure we'll all be watching this with interest.
For a long time the stalwarts on our side of the fence have been asking for increased fuel duty and scrapping of "road-tax." As already pointed out the gaz guzzling 4x4 school run vehicle would then pay fairly for its consumption and justifyably the unusued motorbike in the garage wouldn't be taxed at all.
Sadly this route seems to be littered with problems. Apparently the issuing of a road fund licence provides proof of MOT and insurance and how can you possibly tax people for use of their lawn-mower or speedboat?
Personally, it may come as no surprise, that i reckon there's summat sinister involved here. The billions of pounds that need to be spent to accomodate the hardware, software and manpower to effectively administer the massive data-streams involved from this sort of system seem a bit self defeating.
I'm sure an alternate system will be sneaked in while we're recovering from the blow of this one and we'll all happily grab it with both hands just to avoid the alternative.
Let's face it, our Transport Policy is nothing to be proud of. For years, a lack of investment has lead to a public transport system that is unattractive and regarded as "lower class." The great motoring god has carved up the country to generate traffic free routes that actually create more traffic.
If we're not careful we're going to end up like the americans, totally car dependant and fat, and in a country that can't accomodate that philosophy.
I'm sure we'll all be watching this with interest.
Warming the Bed
its just a way of getting cars off the road so the governm,ent dont get stuck in traffic jams caused by those nasty common people who have to use them in order to work to pay their taxes.
4x4s, nasty gas guzzling things, lets tax em off the roads. dont they ever read the specs. these days a lot are more fuel efficient than most poular small cars. as for charging us to install the technology to track us, why dont we just motorise our wheelie bins, theve already got the microchips in. have to use the recycle ones though.
ok, rant over
4x4s, nasty gas guzzling things, lets tax em off the roads. dont they ever read the specs. these days a lot are more fuel efficient than most poular small cars. as for charging us to install the technology to track us, why dont we just motorise our wheelie bins, theve already got the microchips in. have to use the recycle ones though.
ok, rant over
Got to admit that we have been watching the news on this from afar and have come to the same conclusions as several other people.
In the UK you pay road tax, Duty on fuel (one of the highest in the EU) vat on both the fuel duty and cost of the fuel (so paying tax on the tax!)all of which produce a large amount of cash for the government and with record oil prices over the last year, Gordon Brown is fat and happy... but.. how much of the revenue from this lot has ever been used to improve the transport situation within the UK?? People use cars because most of the time, the public transport system sucks so there is no viable alternative!!!
On this side of the channel, there is no 'road tax' at all, if you want to use the autoroutes then you pay but you do have the choice. As the oil companies have recorded record profits, the government is hitting them with a 'windfall tax' to off-set fuel tax increases so keeping the fuel costs stable which in turn keep costs in the shops steady as customers don't have to pay for increased delivery charges.
The other thing about the French (love em or hate 'em) is that they do constantly remind the government about who they work for... the voters!!
In the UK you pay road tax, Duty on fuel (one of the highest in the EU) vat on both the fuel duty and cost of the fuel (so paying tax on the tax!)all of which produce a large amount of cash for the government and with record oil prices over the last year, Gordon Brown is fat and happy... but.. how much of the revenue from this lot has ever been used to improve the transport situation within the UK?? People use cars because most of the time, the public transport system sucks so there is no viable alternative!!!
On this side of the channel, there is no 'road tax' at all, if you want to use the autoroutes then you pay but you do have the choice. As the oil companies have recorded record profits, the government is hitting them with a 'windfall tax' to off-set fuel tax increases so keeping the fuel costs stable which in turn keep costs in the shops steady as customers don't have to pay for increased delivery charges.
The other thing about the French (love em or hate 'em) is that they do constantly remind the government about who they work for... the voters!!
oh... and just one other dark thought...
With the little black box installed in your cars, how long before you notice that your bank account is empty because...
"it has been determined that you travelled at 31 mph in 30 mph restricted zone and you have been fined accordingly"
Big brother eh??
With the little black box installed in your cars, how long before you notice that your bank account is empty because...
"it has been determined that you travelled at 31 mph in 30 mph restricted zone and you have been fined accordingly"
Big brother eh??
Orgasminator
Road Charging at the end of the day & this does come in we wont just be paying for our own miles covered 
we will be paying for the haulage companies milage as well because they will pass it on to the customer who will pass it on to us the consumer
Now the ideal situation for the haulage companies would be to deliver at night so to miss the peak times
but then they have the extra cost of paying drivers a night rate for going out at that time & keeping the roads clear & once again this will be passed on to the customer & again to us the consumer
I suppose whatever way you look at it Gordon Brown WINS
The charge comes in he collects the payment.
Lorries go out earlier so you have increased wages he collects the tax on that.
Your shop goods go up due to the milage charge & increased wages getting them there he collects the
VAT.
we will be paying for the haulage companies milage as well because they will pass it on to the customer who will pass it on to us the consumer Now the ideal situation for the haulage companies would be to deliver at night so to miss the peak times
but then they have the extra cost of paying drivers a night rate for going out at that time & keeping the roads clear & once again this will be passed on to the customer & again to us the consumer I suppose whatever way you look at it Gordon Brown WINS
The charge comes in he collects the payment.
Lorries go out earlier so you have increased wages he collects the tax on that.
Your shop goods go up due to the milage charge & increased wages getting them there he collects the
VAT.
Shark - You have to be doing over 33 in a 30 zone, but to be honest i don’t think those black boxes will do as much as is being said by the scaremongers out there, no technology could track 20 million vehicles at any one time and if it did it would cost the earth twice over.
tax on tax, well that’s part of life in the UK now isn’t it, but in all fairness the road fund license will be scrapped along with fuel duty so when you sum it up lots of motorists will be better off, worst hit will be people who stay in major cities. But i think the initiative is to get these people to use their cars less and take the tube etc, I'd be better off but the point i don't see is why should i pay the same to travel a 50 mile trip in my toyota yaris as a 35 ton articulated lorry? I don't see the logic in this and if there is one then why is the said lorry paying £1500 road tax and duty on fuel as i type? if you ask me the goverment would draw in less revenue not more and would then try to drag most of it back by overcharging in busy hot spots around the country this is where it becomes unfair as even public transport doesn't price on your location but the trip itself, while all the muppets that decide whether this will go ahead or not are exempt from the charges and can claim for there expenses for their fish & chips while stuck in the traffic jam....
tax on tax, well that’s part of life in the UK now isn’t it, but in all fairness the road fund license will be scrapped along with fuel duty so when you sum it up lots of motorists will be better off, worst hit will be people who stay in major cities. But i think the initiative is to get these people to use their cars less and take the tube etc, I'd be better off but the point i don't see is why should i pay the same to travel a 50 mile trip in my toyota yaris as a 35 ton articulated lorry? I don't see the logic in this and if there is one then why is the said lorry paying £1500 road tax and duty on fuel as i type? if you ask me the goverment would draw in less revenue not more and would then try to drag most of it back by overcharging in busy hot spots around the country this is where it becomes unfair as even public transport doesn't price on your location but the trip itself, while all the muppets that decide whether this will go ahead or not are exempt from the charges and can claim for there expenses for their fish & chips while stuck in the traffic jam....
Quote by Fun Scottish Couple
Shark - You have to be doing over 33 in a 30 zone, but to be honest i don’t think those black boxes will do as much as is being said by the scaremongers out there, no technology could track 20 million vehicles at any one time and if it did it would cost the earth twice over.
Erm, if it can't track all the vehicles on the road at any given time, then just how will it know where you've been to be able to charge you?
And you think it won't cost twice the earth? This is the technology (backhander?) loving government who don't exactly have a track record of sensible low cost IT implementation...
Quote by Shambolic
Shark - You have to be doing over 33 in a 30 zone, but to be honest i don’t think those black boxes will do as much as is being said by the scaremongers out there, no technology could track 20 million vehicles at any one time and if it did it would cost the earth twice over.
Erm, if it can't track all the vehicles on the road at any given time, then just how will it know where you've been to be able to charge you?
And you think it won't cost twice the earth? This is the technology (backhander?) loving government who don't exactly have a track record of sensible low cost IT implementation...
Well i can only speculate on this but what was said is it'll send out a pulse signal every 5 miles, 1 mile minimum, to calculated you billing mileage and won't and can't track by foot, the expert said tracking everyones exact journey would cause meldown, it would be like 20 million people trying to make a phone call on there mobile phone at the same time on one network, that was question time i heard it on from some communications expert they had on but if you know or have heard otherwise then as i said im only going by what was said by an expert in the field.
