Controversial toic it may be but pPost motem research carried out on gay men has shown some interesting results. Evidently female identitry cells have been found in the pituatry gland. All foetus start off as female and through gestation either remain so or change to male based on the xy or xx chromosone. This research seeem to confirm waht some gay men and transexuals have been saying for years that they are women trapped in men's bodies. Discuss.
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Science shows that Gay Men have womens brain stem cells
Quote by rotundman
Controversial toic it may be but pPost motem research carried out on gay men has shown some interesting results. Evidently female identitry cells have been found in the pituatry gland. All foetus start off as female and through gestation either remain so or change to male based on the xy or xx chromosone. This research seeem to confirm waht some gay men and transexuals have been saying for years that they are women trapped in men's bodies. Discuss.
For me to have an opinion on this I'd need to read some of the research ... and for example know some of the background of the person. Was this evident in every gay/transexual cadaver or in just some and how did they live their lives? Female cells in an effeminate gay then yes fair enough, but what about those who are very masculine?
It's okay saying that there is research but back it up please, so we can discuss properly.
Sex God
As far as I'm aware, the pituitary gland has the same structure and function in males and females. Some of the chemicals it produces are sex-related and have different effects on males and females, but I'm under the impression that the chemicals themselves are the same. I don't know what is meant by "female identity cells". Do you have some more info, or a link to a relevant site?
Ice
Ice
I have wondered about the basic brain differences since I watched a documentary on brain differences in (transgendered?) people. I wondered if there was something similar which hadn`t yet been discovered which extended to gay people too.. The problem is that it seems controversail because it suggests a brain `abnormality` for something I do not consider abnormal, but as nature`s main concern is with procreation...........
and guess what? I`m too tired :P
I`ll try to hold this thought!
Goodnight
Venusxxx
and guess what? I`m too tired :P
I`ll try to hold this thought!
Goodnight
Venusxxx
mmmm i work with a lot of gay men and women
and i can see the point in some of them that maybe a womans gene is in their brain they do seem to act quite femmine...so do the women have male hormones then and are bi-sexual just a little bi coz they have not as many cells
i have a mate whos a transvestite he has no desire to be a gay man he just loves womens stuff
its all very complicated and i dont think can be explained with a few cells they think they ve found
every year another mad scientist comes out with another .....amazeing fact only to be out done by some one else saying ...ignore that i have found the truth
todays news is tommorows chip paper as they say
and i can see the point in some of them that maybe a womans gene is in their brain they do seem to act quite femmine...so do the women have male hormones then and are bi-sexual just a little bi coz they have not as many cells
i have a mate whos a transvestite he has no desire to be a gay man he just loves womens stuff
its all very complicated and i dont think can be explained with a few cells they think they ve found
every year another mad scientist comes out with another .....amazeing fact only to be out done by some one else saying ...ignore that i have found the truth
todays news is tommorows chip paper as they say
Sex God
Of course the research doesnt state that such cells are not found in straight men . As you say the cells are present in all of us at birth and so i suppose theoretically can remain even if they dont actually predetermine our sexuality ( or have any effect at all for that matter).
I myself have never met a gay man that claimed he was a woman trapped in a mans body , in fact the prevailing gay males attitude would vehemently deny such a claim , stating categorically that they are men who are attrcted to other men . rather than any freakish 'failed female'.
Although some sections of gay society will always strive to prove a genetic cause for homosexuality whilst many could care less or deny it , truth is I reckon probably in between somewhere . Ive yet to see any credible link genetically but that doesnt of course mean it doesnt exist , but I would venture a guess that even if one were found yo would find that only a percentage of gay people have the gene and the rest were 'socialised' into their sexuality in some way .
Perhaps its time we just stopped looking and let things be as they are .
Peace G
I myself have never met a gay man that claimed he was a woman trapped in a mans body , in fact the prevailing gay males attitude would vehemently deny such a claim , stating categorically that they are men who are attrcted to other men . rather than any freakish 'failed female'.
Although some sections of gay society will always strive to prove a genetic cause for homosexuality whilst many could care less or deny it , truth is I reckon probably in between somewhere . Ive yet to see any credible link genetically but that doesnt of course mean it doesnt exist , but I would venture a guess that even if one were found yo would find that only a percentage of gay people have the gene and the rest were 'socialised' into their sexuality in some way .
Perhaps its time we just stopped looking and let things be as they are .
Peace G
The last two responses seem to put the matter very eloquently... It's all far more wonderful shades of colour than black and white, and as stated even if a genetic link was found there's still the social conditioning over a range of personalities - all unique to their makeup and life experience! For example, speaking as the male in our couple, I have several very camp gay friends, a very close male friend of mine is bi-sexual and dirty with it and I myself am straight tho i have quite a twist on my male identity! I don't really connect with any accepted hetero male images or often behaviour... the closest thing is Prince or Bowie. But I know I'm not a transvestite either (well maybe technically since I do wear heels out and about!) but not of the true Eddie Izzard soul (he's so cute tho ain't he?)! So as said, it's a wonderful patchwork we all fit into somehow - I wouldn't be surprised if accross those friends I described we didn't have very similiar thought processes and feminine aspects to our brain (probably why we get on so well)! BUT - we all have different sexual preferences... hmmmmm
The research was discussed by the courts during the debate which has arisen in legal arguments about transsexuals, the government has promised to change the law forbidding post op transsexuals from changing their birthn certificates etc allowing them hopefully to marry. It will continue while we continue to deny a person the right to be the person they are and not what society says they should be. Suggest those intersted read the Governments paper on transsexuals and the leading cases such as Corbett v Corbett and Bellinger v Bellinger.
Cheers
Rot
Cheers
Rot
Sex God
From what I can gather, your post heading is very misleading. I've just had a quick look into the Bellinger v Bellinger case, and it was about a transgendered person rather than a gay male. My (very limited) knowledge of this subject leads me to believe that there is a vast difference between the two. I don't see that we can "discuss" what you have put forward really.
Quote by Silk and Big G
Of course the research doesn't state that such cells are not found in straight men . Peace G
I had the same thought and realised your larger brain had got their first. Personally I'm proud of my warm and affectionate feminine side, but I don't think she who is closest to me would claim it was at all obvious!
Sex God
Gay men and transsexuals are completely different from each other 
:roll: :roll: . Transsexuals believe they are trapped in the wrong body. Gay men are more than happy to identify themselves as men.
There are several studies that show differences in the anatomies of gay vs straight men. All flawed, even if they're published in Science :roll: . There is some evidence to suggest that SOME trans women might be different from males in brain anatomy, but no much evidence at this stage.
Pah. I SO dislike armchair psychology.
:x :x :x
Next question :roll:
:roll: :roll: . Transsexuals believe they are trapped in the wrong body. Gay men are more than happy to identify themselves as men.There are several studies that show differences in the anatomies of gay vs straight men. All flawed, even if they're published in Science :roll: . There is some evidence to suggest that SOME trans women might be different from males in brain anatomy, but no much evidence at this stage.
Pah. I SO dislike armchair psychology.
:x :x :x Next question :roll:
Judy I agree with everything you say except the mention of Bill. This mean it is not law yet and this Government has been promising change since the Law Commission's report on Transsexualism in 2001. Europe gets a lot opf stick from people but the EU and other member states are streets ahead of us. It seems ludicrous in this day and age that a coupe or individual is deinied rights jost because they do not fit the "norm" whatever that is supposed to mean.
Cheers
Rot
Cheers
Rot
Sex God
i'm always very wary of research that suggests a genetic reason for homo-sexuality! if it's true that 1 in 10 males are gay, then it's not an abnormality . . . it's simply a variation, and i don't think you can ever have a black and white genetic-gay / genetic-straight analysis of human sexuality. where do bi-males fit in, or straight males who occasionally fantasisie about same-sex sex??? as others have already said, you can't discount socialisation no matter what the research shows! i wonder why so much effort is put into this though? research suggesting a genetic abnormality also suggests a possible "cure" !!!! it's maybe a road we shouldn't be going down IMHO?
neil x x x ;-)
neil x x x ;-)
IMHO the effort is required to try to prevent the disgraceful discrimination which trans gender;sexyual people suffer. The law is an ass and is used by those as an excuse for their own prejudices. Look at the staements in recent political history where Micheal Portillo said he woke up one day and decided to be hetrosexual and Matthew Parish strangely became a practising homosexual his words not mine when he left politicks.
Rot
Rot
Sex God
rotundman yes, and i accept that "proof" of a genetic link could bolster calls for legal change to try and prevent discrimination. but . . . surely by now we should be enlightened enough not to require a scientific argument to back up non-discriminatory legislation. we implement it because it is right in a democratic society to be inclusive of everyone within that society! black skin has a genetic basis for instance, yet that is not the basis for legislation on race-relations, nor does it stop discrimination. it is a problem of education, not genetics, again IMHO!
and i wonder, if there ever is an easy test for homo-sexuality, how long before we have a gay amnio test available? my worry is the agenda behind the research, and to what uses that kinda research could be put!
neil x x x ;-)
and i wonder, if there ever is an easy test for homo-sexuality, how long before we have a gay amnio test available? my worry is the agenda behind the research, and to what uses that kinda research could be put!
neil x x x ;-)
Quote by neilinleeds
research suggesting a genetic abnormality also suggests a possible "cure" !!!! it's maybe a road we shouldn't be going down IMHO?
If some gay people want to be "cured" then is that a problem? Surely it's just the same as small-breasted women wanted to be "cured" or average-endowed men wanting to be cured all the way to VWE?
Quote by neilinleeds
rotundman yes, and i accept that "proof" of a genetic link could bolster calls for legal change to try and prevent discrimination. but . . . surely by now we should be enlightened enough not to require a scientific argument to back up non-discriminatory legislation. we implement it because it is right in a democratic society to be inclusive of everyone within that society! black skin has a genetic basis for instance, yet that is not the basis for legislation on race-relations, nor does it stop discrimination. it is a problem of education, not genetics, again IMHO!
and i wonder, if there ever is an easy test for homo-sexuality, how long before we have a gay amnio test available? my worry is the agenda behind the research, and to what uses that kinda research could be put!
neil x x x ;-)
Unforunately if it was as easy as that in English law its not. For example the law says marriage must betrween a man and a woman. Also contrary to popular belief many births involve children who have signs of both sexes i.e. micro penises and/or clitoris. The need to sex babies at birth is the crux of the matter because like in pregnancy the gender of a human grows and forms in the womb. The sexuality of a person is also to somewhat formed throughout life. I am told that matrnity wards also have white blackets as well as blue and pink. No matter which way you look at it discrimination exists. Rogers comment about being "cured" and relating this to black skin and homosexualltty is not valid as the majrity of black peopel are accepted in society. I don't think we can say the same for gay people.
Sex God
OMG i can't believe i'm posting this. i'm not setting out to be argumentative . . . . .
the point i'm trying badly to make is that, the extent to which a society no longer notices / accepts / tolerates / ignores / persecutes homosexuality depends on the extent to which that society defines homosexuality as being normal, or abnormal! once science "proves" homosexuality is genetically "abnormal", you begin to define homosexuality in negative terms, which then feeds into the very prejudices we all want to see eradicated. once those prejudices are sanctioned by "scientific fact", it's only a short step then to a "cure" that's implemented before birth?
IMHO, we should be trying to educate a society, so that it no longer discriminates, and not seeking a solution in the wrong place that makes that even more difficult to achieve.
neil ;-)
the point i'm trying badly to make is that, the extent to which a society no longer notices / accepts / tolerates / ignores / persecutes homosexuality depends on the extent to which that society defines homosexuality as being normal, or abnormal! once science "proves" homosexuality is genetically "abnormal", you begin to define homosexuality in negative terms, which then feeds into the very prejudices we all want to see eradicated. once those prejudices are sanctioned by "scientific fact", it's only a short step then to a "cure" that's implemented before birth?
IMHO, we should be trying to educate a society, so that it no longer discriminates, and not seeking a solution in the wrong place that makes that even more difficult to achieve.
neil ;-)
It seems that it is only the three of us discussing this. At first I was of the opinion that we should as a civilised society accept and agree that a person can be hetrosexual or homosexual but as Judy points out there are also those in between that are both but neither if you can understand that. Should it rteally matter is the question. It seems that society has spent a long time trying to convince us that an explanation is needed when in fact to the catagories(sorry) of people who their questioin referrs it doesn't.
Quote by rotundman
It seems that it is only the three of us discussing this. At first I was of the opinion that we should as a civilised society accept and agree that a person can be hetrosexual or homosexual but as Judy points out there are also those in between that are both but neither if you can understand that
Ok I'm not discussing it for two reasons
1) I don't know enough about the subject to make a decent comment
2) I try accept people for who they are or want to be without making judgment and be grateful that I know who I am and what sex I am without having all the complications that some have
Dawn :silly:
Sex God
I agree with Blue, but the trouble with this science is that there's always some form of contradictory or confounding evidence/data that can be used in an argument against the results. Like others I'd like to read the paper before I make a comment on it's validity.
Looking at it from another point of view, is the difference in the brain a product of the chosen sex life of the individual rather than the cause?
The reason we have survived and thrived is because we are able to adapt, so is this just the result of an adaptation?
Just another confounding variable to through into the pot.
Looking at it from another point of view, is the difference in the brain a product of the chosen sex life of the individual rather than the cause?
The reason we have survived and thrived is because we are able to adapt, so is this just the result of an adaptation?
Just another confounding variable to through into the pot.
This is a subject which has so many problems, as it brings up the sticky problem for me of asking the question, Why are some people within and without the scientific community trying to find a biological reason for homosexuality? If society can find a "reason" for homosexuality in nature it can of course become more comfortable with it, and it becomes less of a threat as it cannot be "caught" or learned behaviour. For social constructivists such as symbolic interactionists everything about the human is learned or constructed by society, and in fact sax and gender are only synonyms. I myself after extensive research cannot accept that sex and gender are one and the same thing. and do agree that gender is socially constructed however I must believe that sex is a biological predetermined component of the human condition. to believe other wise would for starters lead us to have to accept that homosexuality is a socially constructed condition. However the idea that homosexuals of either sex are opposite sex people trapped in the body of an opposite sex person is entirely without validity and in fact negates the very idea of homosexuality. My question must be at this point "why would homosexual people wish to find a reason for being homosexual"? Do they wish justification? Do they need justification for existing? Do they crave greater social acceptance from biological explanations? I would write more however I would like other people’s comments to think of first. I am myself a male to female transsexual as well as being a Dr of psychology and sociologist. I tell you this only as you deserve to know al the facts and may even believe this gives me a natural bias, I do hope not.
Samantha.
Samantha.
Sex God
Well, this certainly proves that the search button works!
Samantha, are you here just for opinions for your research?
Samantha, are you here just for opinions for your research?
Sex God
Quote by Dr samanthacaroloneil
This is a subject which has so many problems, as it brings up the sticky problem for me of asking the question, Why are some people within and without the scientific community trying to find a biological reason for homosexuality? If society can find a "reason" for homosexuality in nature it can of course become more comfortable with it, and it becomes less of a threat as it cannot be "caught" or learned behaviour. For social constructivists such as symbolic interactionists everything about the human is learned or constructed by society, and in fact sax and gender are only synonyms. I myself after extensive research cannot accept that sex and gender are one and the same thing. and do agree that gender is socially constructed however I must believe that sex is a biological predetermined component of the human condition. to believe other wise would for starters lead us to have to accept that homosexuality is a socially constructed condition. However the idea that homosexuals of either sex are opposite sex people trapped in the body of an opposite sex person is entirely without validity and in fact negates the very idea of homosexuality. My question must be at this point "why would homosexual people wish to find a reason for being homosexual"? Do they wish justification? Do they need justification for existing? Do they crave greater social acceptance from biological explanations? I would write more however I would like other people’s comments to think of first. I am myself a male to female transsexual as well as being a Dr of psychology and sociologist. I tell you this only as you deserve to know al the facts and may even believe this gives me a natural bias, I do hope not.
Samantha.
I know this is a serious post (at least I think it is 'cos I don't understand it) but there's more multi-syllabled words here than I've been heavily criticised for in the past.
You sure yer on the right site gel?
Me eyes glazed over at "For social constructivists such as symbolic interactionists..."
Sex God
Quote by westerross
This is a subject which has so many problems, as it brings up the sticky problem for me of asking the question, Why are some people within and without the scientific community trying to find a biological reason for homosexuality? If society can find a "reason" for homosexuality in nature it can of course become more comfortable with it, and it becomes less of a threat as it cannot be "caught" or learned behaviour. For social constructivists such as symbolic interactionists everything about the human is learned or constructed by society, and in fact sax and gender are only synonyms. I myself after extensive research cannot accept that sex and gender are one and the same thing. and do agree that gender is socially constructed however I must believe that sex is a biological predetermined component of the human condition. to believe other wise would for starters lead us to have to accept that homosexuality is a socially constructed condition. However the idea that homosexuals of either sex are opposite sex people trapped in the body of an opposite sex person is entirely without validity and in fact negates the very idea of homosexuality. My question must be at this point "why would homosexual people wish to find a reason for being homosexual"? Do they wish justification? Do they need justification for existing? Do they crave greater social acceptance from biological explanations? I would write more however I would like other people’s comments to think of first. I am myself a male to female transsexual as well as being a Dr of psychology and sociologist. I tell you this only as you deserve to know al the facts and may even believe this gives me a natural bias, I do hope not.
Samantha.
I know this is a serious post (at least I think it is 'cos I don't understand it) but there's more multi-syllabled words here than I've been heavily criticised for in the past.
You sure yer on the right site gel?
Me eyes glazed over at "For social constructivists such as symbolic interactionists..."
I understood it :smug:
To summerise...
Biological sex and gender roles are not the same thing. Biological sex is errrrrrrrrrrr..... biological, whilst gendered behaviour is learned.
Homosexuals do not have a problem with gender identity.
There. That's about it really
I think I can shed a little light here:
So with your permission:-
G-protein mutations have not been described in corticotophic systems. In view of the potential effects of adenylyl cyclase dysregulaton on POMC gene transcription, and the potential effects of gip on cell functions 32 corticotrophic adenomas for gsp and gip gene mutations using polymerase chain reaction followed by site-directed oligo nucleioteid hybridhdriization.
I hope this clears ups this matter once and for all.
Mollie
So with your permission:-
G-protein mutations have not been described in corticotophic systems. In view of the potential effects of adenylyl cyclase dysregulaton on POMC gene transcription, and the potential effects of gip on cell functions 32 corticotrophic adenomas for gsp and gip gene mutations using polymerase chain reaction followed by site-directed oligo nucleioteid hybridhdriization.
I hope this clears ups this matter once and for all.
Mollie
