Thereâ€™s Something About Miriam

7 Mar 2004

Sky One - A game show with a difference:
Half a dozen British lads compete for the attentions of a stunning South American model.
She's beautiful
She's intelligent
She's funny
She's romantic
And what the fellas don't know is....
She's a man!
Now personally I'd like to think that I could tell close up, but on the telly it's far from obvious. OK, she has a bit of an Adam's apple, her hands are too big, and the bone structure in her face has something of the "chiselled'" look about it, but would I have noticed those things if I didn't already know the truth? Am I just imagining them because I know the truth?
What do you reckon then people; could you be fooled?
Ice

7 Mar 2004

I think it's a ridiculous idea for a game show. Reality TV gone nuts. Literally. wink

7 Mar 2004

I didn't notice anything from the adverts, just that she was a great looking girl.
If all blokes looked like that I'd be gay wink

7 Mar 2004

I'd go with Renton from Trainspotting:
"It's all a question of aesthetics and it's f*** all to do with morality. It's just a question of who you fancy"
I can relate to this with one of my closest mates. I always assumed - because he told me so - that he was straight but he has since entered the most loving relationship I know with a lad, someone who has had the most fantastic effect on him. This is all because of they share so much in common. The fact that his new squeeze has a willy has absolutely nothing to do with things.
Good on him, I say!

8 Mar 2004

Yeah, but Miriam isn't a guy, is she???? confused

8 Mar 2004

Arrrgggh!! A minefield!! :shock:
I usually have Sky 1 on the box in the evening coz I'm one of the Sci-Fi nuts mentioned in another thread. When I get home from work the telly's tuned to Star Trek and it stays there all evening. When I'm on the PC it doesn't really matter what's on.
I've noticed the Miriam thing out of the corner of my eye and yes, he does make a very attractive woman and I can sympathise that he's wanted to be a woman from a very early age (I didn't say understand it, I said sympathise).
Despite all the mental angst and the looks of the individual I just can't see past my biological definition of this person as being a guy. Maybe I'm the one with the problem, maybe I'm just straighter than a straight thing that wins straight thing competitions.
Working in the Far East for a couple of years I met quite a few transexauls and the look of some of them was stunning. We never got past the friendship/drinking/falling down stage though and everyone was happy. biggrin

What happens to the guy that wins the 'competition'? Does he get free counselling at the end of the show?
Steve

8 Mar 2004

Miriam is a woman. She believes she is a woman, she certainly looks like a woman. I don't know whether she plans to have her "bits" chopped in the future, but what if she does - who would ever know that she was born XY not XX?

8 Mar 2004

Quote by bluexxx
Yeah, but Miriam isn't a guy, is she????

Well, she claims to be. The contestants don't know that though, only the audience.

8 Mar 2004

She is what she claims to be. In gaining access to the hormones she has obviously been taking so far, she will have had to convince one or more specialist doctors who know a lot more about what gender is than any layperson, that she is what she claims to be. Therefore, it is not just Miriam's opinion on her gender that counts, it has been clarified by experts in the field. Or are you guys saying you know better? :shock:
The guys not knowing that Miriam has a dick is an ethical issue of course. But bloody hell, they agreed to take part in a reality TV show and surely they know that TV companies will do anything for viewers.
I haven't been watching it as the guys they have on the programme are irritating. Miriam can do much better than any of them - I'm free when she is :twisted:

8 Mar 2004

I knew this was gonna happen.....lol.
He may believe that he's a woman and he certainly looks like a woman but that doesn't make him a woman.
He doesn't plan to have his "bits" chopped off (he's apparently quite happy with them) but if he did he could probably lead the life of a woman and you're right, maybe no-one would ever know.
I'm not trying to cause an argument here, we just have different opinions.

8 Mar 2004

Quote by bluexxx
She is what she claims to be. In gaining access to the hormones she has obviously been taking so far, she will have had to convince one or more specialist doctors who know a lot more about what gender is than any layperson, that she is what she claims to be. Therefore, it is not just Miriam's opinion on her gender that counts, it has been clarified by experts in the field. Or are you guys saying you know better? :shock:

I'm not claiming to know better, I'm admitting to ignorance. She is presented on the show as a man pretending to be a woman. Maybe that's what she is, maybe it's a "Victor/Victoria" deal, I wouldn't know.

The guys not knowing that Miriam has a dick is an ethical issue of course. But bloody hell, they agreed to take part in a reality TV show and surely they know that TV companies will do anything for viewers.

It's not "reality" though is it? They have been told they are competing for the attention of a woman. At the end of the game they will apparently be told she's a man. You could call it reality tv insofar as practical jokes happen in real life, but that's all it is I think. At first I thought it would be interesting to see how they would deal with having to question their sexuality when the revelation is made, but I really don't think that's in question anymore. They're straight and the game is a wind-up, that's all.

I haven't been watching it as the guys they have on the programme are irritating. Miriam can do much better than any of them - I'm free when she is :twisted:

Yeah, they are a bit shallow, which is why they were picked for the show I suppose. The guy who got kicked out on last night's episide was interesting but not the figure of ridicule they're looking for. There's no way he was going to get emotionally involved and end up fighting his fellow contestants, which looks likely with a couple of the others, and I think she may have been told to get rid of him for that reason. I would hope that whoever wins has enough of a sense of humour to just accept that he's been had, but somehow, looking at how seriously some of them are taking it, I doubt that.
I asked at the top of the thread whether people thought they would be fooled.
Some years ago I spent some time in Singapore and I was told in advance what to expect on "Boogie Street"(sic), but one of the lads didn't know, took a Ki-Ti back to his hotel room and beat the crap out of her when he found out what she was.
I hope the Miriam show turns out OK and everyone goes home laughing, but it's starting to look as though it may turn nasty. sad

Ice

8 Mar 2004

I believe she idetifies her self as a T-Girl, in other words shes happy to be identified as a woman but shes allso happy to keep the male genitials.
The guys in the program were up to win 10K in the end when they found out about her sexual identity they all clubed together to ban the program and sue and I believe walked away with 125K EACH!
I personaly find her looks stunning, the strong lines in her face I find very attractive... But I think her voice would eventually drive me nutts, lol.
And yes, I could play with her.
Jon

8 Mar 2004

What consenting adults do with full disclosure does not cause me a problem. However I find deception in the sexual arena particularly distasteful.
Considerable offence is caused on this site by people claiming to be something thay they're not (young, fit, single, well equiped etc).
I personally would be extremely offended to think I was getting a beatiful lady to then discover I was getting a lady boy as THAT IS NOT MY THING.
I personally feel that the program is in exceding bad taste. I don't think it does any good for genuine TV's or Gender transformed individuals as it could be argued that a stereo type is being created of a deceptive type of people (which most are not).

8 Mar 2004

Quote by bluexxx
She is what she claims to be. In gaining access to the hormones she has obviously been taking so far, she will have had to convince one or more specialist doctors who know a lot more about what gender is than any layperson, that she is what she claims to be. Therefore, it is not just Miriam's opinion on her gender that counts, it has been clarified by experts in the field. Or are you guys saying you know better? :shock:

Sorry, but have to disagree with you there Bluexxx because in a British court of law if this person was to be convicted of a crime they would be convicted as a man and would have to serve out any sentence in a male prison - maybe in isolation - but still a mans prison.
Until such time as this country allows people to change their sex on a birth certificate then they will stay the sex they were born with!
That is not a personal view - just a statement of law!
Fred

8 Mar 2004

Quote by lonelysausage
What consenting adults do with full disclosure does not cause me a problem. However I find deception in the sexual arena particularly distasteful

Here here Lonely, I agree, I have not seen the show, but the concept of misleading people like this to me is wrong.
But on the topic of the thread I have met a few TV's and normally something goes click, you can tell, but since I not looking for physical relationships it never been a problem and they normally are great conversationalists smile

8 Mar 2004

Fred, I know very well what the law does to transgendered people. I know that MTF transsexuals get sent to male prisons where their lives are total hell. I know that the law does not recognise sex changes. The law is wrong and will change, but until then yes, transsexuals are stuck by law with what it says on their birth certificates. Have a look at this for lots of info on transgender issues and the law:

However, that is not the issue.
The issues here are:
1. is Miriam a woman? Yes she is. With respect to the people who say she isn't, she IS. We need not debate this. This has already been debated by Miriam and her doctors. What more is there to say? Steveg, sorry but you insisting on calling her "he" is offensive. There is a big difference between biological sex and gender identity. It is a shame more people who are sopposed to be open minded cannot recognise this difference.
2. Is the fact that the guys are fooled into thinking Miriam is a biological female with girl bits unethical. Yes it is I suppose, but hey, were those prats really expecting a shag from something waaaaaaaaaaay out of their league anyway?
Ok, that's all I have to say on the matter. I'm too close to this subject to be objective anyway

8 Mar 2004

Quote by bluexxx
1. is Miriam a woman? Yes she is. With respect to the people who say she isn't, she IS. We need not debate this.

By saying "We need not debate this" you imply that your opinion is the only one that counts. If you don't wish to debate it, that's up to you. If others do wish to debate it, isn't that up to them?
Ice

8 Mar 2004

Quote by bluexxx
However, that is not the issue.

It absolutely is the issue.....
In their eyes they may be female.
In the laws eyes they ARE male.
In some peoples minds that accept that there are transgender issues they are female.
In other peoples eyes - irrespective of what the individual feels - they are still seen as male.

1. is Miriam a woman? Yes she is. With respect to the people who say she isn't, she IS. We need not debate this.

In law he is a man - so you cannot make that statement as a statement of fact - it is an statement of emotion.
You may be close to the issue - but it does not mean that there is not more than one viewpoint!
Fred

8 Mar 2004

OK, I said that was all I have to say on the matter, but this is my footnote rolleyes

I never said that there is only one viewpoint.
I know under British law Miriam is male, but that doesn't mean to say that can not identified by others as a woman. There is a big distinction between biological sex and gender identify that you are failing to grasp here. Biological sex is a fact. Gender identity is more complicated.
By saying we do not need to debate this, I mean that it has already been decided by people more in the know that all of you. Expressing an opinion on this is fine and yes there is more than one viewpoint, but as far as people like Miriam are concerned there is only one right answer, and that is that their gender identity is different than their biological sex, regardless of what you guys or the law think confused

8 Mar 2004

Quote by bluexxx
Steveg, sorry but you insisting on calling her "he" is offensive. There is a big difference between biological sex and gender identity. It is a shame more people who are sopposed to be open minded cannot recognise this difference.

Who's being offensive??? :shock:
Miriam is biologically a man and will always be a he in that sense. If Miriam wants to identify his gender as female and spend the rest of his/her life living as a woman then fine.
I don't see how that's being narrow minded. I'm quite happy for people to live their lives as they see fit. What I said previously was:

Despite all the mental angst and the looks of the individual I just can't see past my biological definition of this person as being a guy. Maybe I'm the one with the problem, maybe I'm just straighter than a straight thing that wins straight thing competitions.

That's the way I am but it doesn't say that I'm against anybody else being the way they are. I understand that this may be a subject you're very close to and is perhaps best dropped but you can't expect to make statements like that and not get a response.
Steve

8 Mar 2004

Quote by Fred
In the laws eyes they ARE male.

British law yes. Miriam could drive across Europe and change sex practically every time a border is crossed.

Quote by Steve
Miriam is biologically a man and will always be a he in that sense.

A panel of Judges say he is legally a man, a panel of doctors say she is a biologically a woman. Who is more qualified to make judgements on these issues?
.
The medical opinion is valid only for the purposes of a decision on gender reallocation.
The legal opinion is valid only for the purposes of the criminal justice system. The discussion is not about medical fact or law, but about the perceptions of individuals and these should be based on personal values. We are all entitled to our own perceptions, Miriam is entitled to think of herself as a women, others are entitled to agree or disagree as they see fit.
Much of the ethos of this forum us about allowing others to explore their own sexuality in the way they wish to explore it. So if Miriam was on the forum, the gender used would not be my choice. I would use whichever I was asked to use, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter.
lhk
Kat

9 Mar 2004

A good thread smile

My thoughts
1. Would I spot Miriam as a man - NO
2. Is miriam cute - YES
Point is this - no-one would mine miriam being what he/she is - as long as he/she was honest about it. - thats the crux of the matter really, I think all parties to this discussion could agree with that that.
Now on a personal note: In deciding whether Mirian should be addressed as he or she, I can only look at my own beliefs - no amount of doctors or lawyers can accurately tell you what another person is thinking - if they could they would all be millionaires. So I dont think the argument that miriam convinced a bunch of docs doesnt hold up
I was made to read a book during a level english called "conundrum" by Jan Morris. It tried to demonstrate the idea that a woman could be trapped inside a mans body, I personally didnt see it as anything else except a valiant cry for attention

9 Mar 2004

Kat, as always the voice of reason 8)
Anyone else who thinks that transgendered people are doing nothing more tha attention seeking would be adviced to read this:

this:

this:

and this:

A 50 item multiple choice exam will follow shortly, just to check you understand it wink

10 Mar 2004

Just read on BBC news
Sky have settled out of court with compensation for the 6 men involved who threatened to sue.
Edited by steveg_nw