Sex God
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A littleknowledge is a dangerous thing"
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Sex God
Quote by Mallock2006
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
As has been said, we weren't there, we don't know the full story and we can all sit here and hypothesise about what we would have done. BUT we weren't in that situation at that time, so we can't possibly know - as much as we'd like to think we'd do the 'right' thing.
Quote by Freckledbird
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
Sex God
It's still hypothetical - none of us knows absolutely what we'd do until we are in that situation.
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
How can that be when the protocols for performing CPR change almost weekly
Quote by duncanlondon
The two community police officers were there and they did know what they chose to do.
Again this is something that training had prepared them for.
I understood them to be Community Support Officers, but their first aid training would probably be the same as a Police Officer.
Quote by Mallock2006
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
How can that be when the protocols for performing CPR change almost weekly
Protocols certainly do change frequently but no matter how many breaths/compression is the advised current method.......if someone is not breathing and their heart is not pumping any attempt to change that situation in this case where no professional help was available is a good thing.
You surely aren't saying that if someone doesn't know exactly what the current CPR protocol is they should do nothing? If someone were to give me 26 compressions instead of 30 and 3 breaths instead of two and I recovered you wouldn’t hear me complaining.
Eltigre
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre......
It's still hypothetical - none of us knows absolutely what we'd do until we are in that situation.
.....or have dealt with situations like it before.
Eltigre
Every situation is different - you can't possibly predict exactly what you'd do. If you're untrained, you're even less likely to say what you'd do in any given circumstance.
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
How can that be when the protocols for performing CPR change almost weekly
Protocols certainly do change frequently but no matter how many breaths/compression is the advised current method.......if someone is not breathing and their heart is not pumping any attempt to change that situation in this case where no professional help was available is a good thing.
You surely aren't saying that if someone doesn't know exactly what the current CPR protocol is they should do nothing? If someone were to give me 26 compressions instead of 30 and 3 breaths instead of two and I recovered you wouldn’t hear me complaining.
Eltigre
Well all the paramedics and doctors I work with at weekends reckon CPR done badly is a dangerous thing :dunno:
Quote by Freckledbird......
It's still hypothetical - none of us knows absolutely what we'd do until we are in that situation.
.....or have dealt with situations like it before.
Eltigre
Every situation is different - you can't possibly predict exactly what you'd do. If you're untrained, you're even less likely to say what you'd do in any given circumstance.
With respect it is this situation that I am talking about.
Conditioned response is the whole idea of training be it in the armed forces, the police force or fire service. With training your actions become more automatic and therefore predictable and though circumstances may and do change you are able to predict fairly well how you will respond. This is especially true when you are dealing with similar situations on a regular basis.
I agree, it is difficult for people who have not been trained or experienced situations like this to accurately predict how they would react.
Eltigre
I'm trained in CPR, I'm trained to use a DeFib machine and was on call in our local area a while back. I was fairly confident in what I knew, been over it a dozen of times. I'd coped with emergencies in the family home more than once so I was more than happy with any situation that I would be thrown into.
The only time the phone went and I had to go and assist an incident, I almost shit my pants
I couldn't remember where the road was and considering Ian had live in it years before, my mind had stupidly gone blank.
Took me a minute to gather my thoughts and even then, Ian drove me.
Gladly I wasn't needed in the end but it just goes to show, we have no way of knowing how we will behave in any given situation.
The only time the phone went and I had to go and assist an incident, I almost shit my pants
I couldn't remember where the road was and considering Ian had live in it years before, my mind had stupidly gone blank.
Took me a minute to gather my thoughts and even then, Ian drove me.
Gladly I wasn't needed in the end but it just goes to show, we have no way of knowing how we will behave in any given situation.
Sex God
Dealing with sudden accidents is something I do weekend in,weekend out due to my involvement in motor-sport and we are always nervous when travelling to the incident on the track as we never know exactly what we are going to find..
In my first year as a fully licensed meber I dealt with 1 fatal incident and 2 near fatal (both drivers had a GCS of 3 on arrival and it doesnt get any lower than that) and I dealt with them quite easily but still get nervous when going to another incident.
In my first year as a fully licensed meber I dealt with 1 fatal incident and 2 near fatal (both drivers had a GCS of 3 on arrival and it doesnt get any lower than that) and I dealt with them quite easily but still get nervous when going to another incident.
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre
With respect it is this situation that I am talking about.
Conditioned response is the whole idea of training be it in the armed forces, the police force or fire service. With training your actions become more automatic and therefore predictable and though circumstances may and do change you are able to predict fairly well how you will respond. This is especially true when you are dealing with similar situations on a regular basis.
I agree, it is difficult for people who have not been trained or experienced situations like this to accurately predict how they would react.
Eltigre
And with respect, the officers were said to have not had appropriate training - so for this situation, their response should not be condemned or questioned, by people who do not have all the facts.
We can all sit here quite comfortably and say we would jump in, but the fact still remains that you cannot say for certain how you would react until you're there.
Quote by Mallock2006
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
How can that be when the protocols for performing CPR change almost weekly
Protocols certainly do change frequently but no matter how many breaths/compression is the advised current method.......if someone is not breathing and their heart is not pumping any attempt to change that situation in this case where no professional help was available is a good thing.
You surely aren't saying that if someone doesn't know exactly what the current CPR protocol is they should do nothing? If someone were to give me 26 compressions instead of 30 and 3 breaths instead of two and I recovered you wouldn’t hear me complaining.
Eltigre
Well all the paramedics and doctors I work with at weekends reckon CPR done badly is a dangerous thing :dunno:
What? :shock: Dangerous to someone who is effectively dead!
Eltigre
Quote by Dawnie
I'm trained in CPR, I'm trained to use a DeFib machine and was on call in our local area a while back. I was fairly confident in what I knew, been over it a dozen of times. I'd coped with emergencies in the family home more than once so I was more than happy with any situation that I would be thrown into.
The only time the phone went and I had to go and assist an incident, I almost shit my pants
I couldn't remember where the road was and considering Ian had live in it years before, my mind had stupidly gone blank.
Took me a minute to gather my thoughts and even then, Ian drove me.
Gladly I wasn't needed in the end but it just goes to show, we have no way of knowing how we will behave in any given situation.
The first time is always the worst. There will always be nerves but it gets easier.
Eltigre
Sex God
Quote by Freckledbird
With respect it is this situation that I am talking about.
Conditioned response is the whole idea of training be it in the armed forces, the police force or fire service. With training your actions become more automatic and therefore predictable and though circumstances may and do change you are able to predict fairly well how you will respond. This is especially true when you are dealing with similar situations on a regular basis.
I agree, it is difficult for people who have not been trained or experienced situations like this to accurately predict how they would react.
Eltigre
And with respect, the officers were said to have not had appropriate training - so for this situation, their response should not be condemned or questioned, by people who do not have all the facts.
We can all sit here quite comfortably and say we would jump in, but the fact still remains that you cannot say for certain how you would react until you're there.
I agree totally! This is the fundamental problem really. We can judge after the event but we cannot predict the outcomes or know with any certainty how we will react.
These threads can be very thought provoking and provide a wonderful intellectual exercise, but we can't forget that faced with the very real situation, and having all the information in front of us, any number of different decisions are possible.
Whatever decision is made has to be made quickly, but it also has to take in a huge amount of information which has to be prioritised and acted upon.
Quote by Freckledbird
With respect it is this situation that I am talking about.
Conditioned response is the whole idea of training be it in the armed forces, the police force or fire service. With training your actions become more automatic and therefore predictable and though circumstances may and do change you are able to predict fairly well how you will respond. This is especially true when you are dealing with similar situations on a regular basis.
I agree, it is difficult for people who have not been trained or experienced situations like this to accurately predict how they would react.
Eltigre
And with respect, the officers were said to have not had appropriate training - so for this situation, their response should not be condemned or questioned, by people who do not have all the facts.
We can all sit here quite comfortably and say we would jump in, but the fact still remains that you cannot say for certain how you would react until you're there.
If you look back at my posts I made a point of saying that blame should not be apportioned. I am not questioning how anyone behaved other than saying that IMHO it is better to try resuscitate in this situation than to do nothing. Nor have I ever mentioned whether they should or should not have jumped in that was their choice.
I don’t consider myself to be special but I do know what I would have done in that situation.
Eltigre
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
How can that be when the protocols for performing CPR change almost weekly
Protocols certainly do change frequently but no matter how many breaths/compression is the advised current method.......if someone is not breathing and their heart is not pumping any attempt to change that situation in this case where no professional help was available is a good thing.
You surely aren't saying that if someone doesn't know exactly what the current CPR protocol is they should do nothing? If someone were to give me 26 compressions instead of 30 and 3 breaths instead of two and I recovered you wouldn’t hear me complaining.
Eltigre
Well all the paramedics and doctors I work with at weekends reckon CPR done badly is a dangerous thing :dunno:
What? :shock: Dangerous to someone who is effectively dead!
Eltigre
I don't understand this arguement.
Context is everything and if something is more likely to make things worse I cannot see the logic in carrying on regardless.
Sex God
Quote by bbw_lover
I don't understand this arguement.
Context is everything and if something is more likely to make things worse I cannot see the logic in carrying on regardless.
Nor me...
Thats why I quit it :-)
Quote by bbw_lover
I think the saying goes soemthing like "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Indeed.
There is the possibility that more damage can be done by people who think they can do first aid.
In this situation, which is what I was talking about when I said you couldn't make matters any worse, any attempt to get the child breathing and his heart beating would be better than doing nothing. Where CPR is concerned a little knowledge is sometimes all that is needed to save a life or preserve it until professionals can arrive.
Eltigre
How can that be when the protocols for performing CPR change almost weekly
Protocols certainly do change frequently but no matter how many breaths/compression is the advised current method.......if someone is not breathing and their heart is not pumping any attempt to change that situation in this case where no professional help was available is a good thing.
You surely aren't saying that if someone doesn't know exactly what the current CPR protocol is they should do nothing? If someone were to give me 26 compressions instead of 30 and 3 breaths instead of two and I recovered you wouldn’t hear me complaining.
Eltigre
Well all the paramedics and doctors I work with at weekends reckon CPR done badly is a dangerous thing :dunno:
What? :shock: Dangerous to someone who is effectively dead!
Eltigre
I don't understand this arguement.
Context is everything and if something is more likely to make things worse I cannot see the logic in carrying on regardless.
In this situation, the point I am trying to make, none too well, is that if a person is not breathing and their heart is not beating. No professional help is likely to get there in time. They are not going to live. Trying to give CPR is their only hope. You might not do it as to the current prescribed instructions but......if you are able to get their heart started and they start breathing they might just live.
If in the process you manage to break a rib, tear intercostal muscles or fracture the sternum (in the case of very young or old people)if they live they are unlikely to complain. If they do not resuscitate what is the difference, at least you tried.
Eltigre
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre
If you look back at my posts I made a point of saying that blame should not be apportioned. I am not questioning how anyone behaved other than saying that IMHO it is better to try resuscitate in this situation than to do nothing. Nor have I ever mentioned whether they should or should not have jumped in that was their choice.
I don’t consider myself to be special but I do know what I would have done in that situation.
Eltigre
I know you weren't trying to apportion blame - others were though. I didn't mean to imply that you had, sorry.
To go back to the original situation - it wasn't actually about resuscitation, it was about jumping into a pond (with who knows what, unseen under the surface). The OP said they'd have jumped in and condemned the PCSOs for not doing that.
You might have experience and/or training for this kind of situation - I'm a first aider so have had some training. I still don't know how I would react, given that situation though. Too many variables and factors to take into consideration for the majority of people (especially untrained) to say how they would have reacted. Only in my opinion, of course.
Sex God
Quote by Eltigre
In this situation, the point I am trying to make, none too well, is that if a person is not breathing and their heart is not beating. No professional help is likely to get there in time. They are not going to live. Trying to give CPR is their only hope. You might not do it as to the current prescribed instructions but......if you are able to get their heart started and they start breathing they might just live.
If in the process you manage to break a rib, tear intercostal muscles or fracture the sternum (in the case of very young or old people)if they live they are unlikely to complain. If they do not resuscitate what is the difference, at least you tried.
Eltigre
I can actually see the point you're making here, and understand the logic behind it. BUT given the outcome of this particular case, if anything had been attempted on this boy that had resulted in any injury, I think the parents would still have complained - they're looking for someone to blame, maybe even for recompense. In my opinion, they need to look closer to home for that.
Quote by Freckledbird
If you look back at my posts I made a point of saying that blame should not be apportioned. I am not questioning how anyone behaved other than saying that IMHO it is better to try resuscitate in this situation than to do nothing. Nor have I ever mentioned whether they should or should not have jumped in that was their choice.
I don’t consider myself to be special but I do know what I would have done in that situation.
Eltigre
I know you weren't trying to apportion blame - others were though. I didn't mean to imply that you had, sorry.
To go back to the original situation - it wasn't actually about resuscitation, it was about jumping into a pond (with who knows what, unseen under the surface). The OP said they'd have jumped in and condemned the PCSOs for not doing that.
You might have experience and/or training for this kind of situation - I'm a first aider so have had some training. I still don't know how I would react, given that situation though. Too many variables and factors to take into consideration for the majority of people (especially untrained) to say how they would have reacted. Only in my opinion, of course.
No apology needed.
It's good to talk. I understand that there is a vast difference between the way people with and without training react.Eltigre
I dont think just having the training would determine how a person would react in situations like this, I think if someone has had the training and experience of dealing with CPR then instinct would probably kick in, I know its been said many times but I will say it again .....know one knows how they would react until they are in the situation
Quote by Freckledbird
In this situation, the point I am trying to make, none too well, is that if a person is not breathing and their heart is not beating. No professional help is likely to get there in time. They are not going to live. Trying to give CPR is their only hope. You might not do it as to the current prescribed instructions but......if you are able to get their heart started and they start breathing they might just live.
If in the process you manage to break a rib, tear intercostal muscles or fracture the sternum (in the case of very young or old people)if they live they are unlikely to complain. If they do not resuscitate what is the difference, at least you tried.
Eltigre
I can actually see the point you're making here, and understand the logic behind it. BUT given the outcome of this particular case, if anything had been attempted on this boy that had resulted in any injury, I think the parents would still have complained - they're looking for someone to blame, maybe even for recompense. In my opinion, they need to look closer to home for that.
:thumbup:
