Quote by Dave__Notts
I do get your points Chris but isn't in my nature to just say "sod it, why bother". Sometimes it is better to try and fail than never try at all. If they do not try then they are using excuses, if they try and fail then they are using reasons. Intelligence can only be used when looking at the scale of the job and seeing how many are available. In a very big school the numbers available will not be low enough not to give it a go......but in the eventuality the numbers were to low, then I would say that the more pressing point would be lack of supervision so the school closes for that reason anyway......which is a valid reason.
Looking at the two schools that were open I could see that it was achievable. How many it took I have no idea but they kept it open.
Sorry to hear about your back, I truely am as I know what it feels like. However, is there a claim? The falling over in snow or ice does not make it an absolute that a claim will be successful. Many variables to answer but most insurance will pay out anyway if one comes in as the claim is for pennies rather than hundreds of thousands e.g. anything under £1000 is usually not fought.
It is ironic but you could have slipped going or getting out the car shopping. Just because it happened there does not make it more likely to have happened. Just a bit unlucky I am afraid, but full sympathy to you and hope you recover quickly.
Dave
Yes, there would be a claim if I wanted to pursue it, because I was doing something I hadn't been trained for (I know we both think it shouldn't need much training, but I've seen successful claims like this before).
Quote by Dave__Notts
Wow, I go away for a day and I lose track of the conversation
Well, Quite apart from the legal and H&S aspects that I explained earlier (which are necessarily valid concerns), there are a couple of other things to say now:
- on the idea of the teachers' contracts requiring that we do any other duty requested, this is not quite true - it is worded along the lines of 'any other reasonable request', and it would be very easy to argue that this was not a reasonable request (I personally would be first to volunteer and was in fact doing just this last night, but many people would rightly say no and be protected by the word reasonable in this clause).
- as for why two schools around the corner from each other are affected differently - this can be due to the fact that they have different physical site layouts, the fact that one school has students bussed in while others are more local and walk, age of the school (older schools tend to have more space per student), and a hundred other differences between the schools.
As for the new-ish topic of management in schools, having had experience of management in both private sector and education, I can tell you that there are inspirational managers and dire managers in both industries. Overall maybe management is better in large, private organisations, but I think that management in schools is generally better than in smaller private organisations. Of course these are wild generalisations and you will find all kinds of exceptions.
Chris
I'm not too bad and will be back on my feet in a day or so, but if I had been a little older and less resilient I might be out of action for a while, doctors note or not.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Well, there are a few issues there...
- The county does pay out millions because of claims; have you seen the increase in insurance bills?
Agreed that they pay higher insurance premiums but not the actual claim. This is business wide and has been for years. I have noticed that some types of work tripled or quadrupled in their premiums over the past 10 years even though they haven't made claims.
- You're wrong about the legislation; the Every Child Matters initiative has "Stay safe" as one of its five pillars and is underpinned by the Children Act 2004. It is one of the main things that ofsted and county inspectors look for when visiting; one of our local schools was recently put into special measures partly because it was not upholding the ECM Stay Safe pillar.
This is where we will differ I am afraid. If a H&S offence has been committed or a claim sought, would it be brought under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act and its associated legislation or the Childrens Act? Name any cases that have gone to court.
Every Child Matters initiative is just that. An initiative that is guidance based and not an absolute piece of legislation. Unless the piece of legislation has "should" or "must" preceeding the requirement then it is not an absolute requirement but one that has to be looked at with a reasonable approach. This is the problem with the "risk aversion brigade". It is easier to ban something than do it right. Easier and costs less. Just they haven't the balls to say this.......they hide behind guidance and say "It is the law". No it isn't the law, there are ways and means to achieve it most of the time. I would understand lack of resources and can appreciate it, but not excuses or hiding behind legislation.
ECM is an initiative and every point is a 'must' - it is not guidance but mandatory, schools can be closed for not upholding it. It is also underpinned by the children's act which is law and does have claims brought against it; if you want examples there are hundreds in case law, I can give you a few examples from personal experience, but an easy one for you to check up on because it was very high profile is the case of Sam Linton, who died after suffering an asthma attack at school. The school made multiple mistakes, most of which could have been and should have been avoided, and the inquest drew on aspects of the Children's Act as well as many others. In the end the school were found guilty of systematic neglect and one of the things that was mentioned in the report was a lack of training provided in handling such situations (the teacher left the boy in a corridor alone - something which many would say was common sense not to do so we shouldn't need training?)
- The training you describe above I would think would be enough in a sane world, but not in this one; employers have to keep a record of safety training undertaken by each employee and in the case of the public sector this has to be submitted to county before the employee takes up the job. It also has to be undertaken by a registered training organisation. In my last job I was actually told I could not help out in moving some computers between offices when we moved because I hadn't been trained to lift them. Like it or not this is the way things are.
This is where Lord Young did say that the risk averse are getting their knickers in a twist. The HSE are now supplying example risk assessments on their website to show people how easy and how little you actually have to write. The best example is cleaning chemicals used by a normal cleaner in an office. If you look at a schools COSHH assessment for a cleaner it reads like someone who works in a nuclear powerplant. The HSE's example is "Read the lable on the back of the bottle and follow the instructions". Thats it.......nothing else, basically the same as what we do at home as 99% of the cleaning chemicals are domestic grade. Lets get back to simple. Let the Headmaster make the decision at local level and not go back to County to decide if his caretaker can shovel grit or clean an oven. The Head is the best person to know if a) the job is too big for his staff b) the staff have the ability to do the job whether they have training or not. The example you have given above is what is wrong with Britain today......too risk averse instead of just getting it done.
It doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not - the schools have to abide by the rules, which say that no matter whether you like it or not, people have to be trained sufficiently, and there are many cases where 'common sense' or 'stack those boxes over there' have not been enough because when employees injure themselves doing these jobs they run straight to the solicitors to put in a claim. The schools simply have to protect themselves against this just like anyone else.
And on risk assessments; I am a science teacher, so believe me, the risk assessments are a little different for us. Some of the substances we use are radioactive and have to be kept behind lead, some are explosive and have to be kept under oil, and many are poisonous even in small amounts. Try writing 'follow instructions on bottle' for some of those! you wouldn't get very far.
I do agree that people can be too risk averse in some situations in today's society, but that isn't the argument; the fact is that schools ARE working in this society where people will claim for things that are unavoidable in reality, etc. so they have to protect themselves, and if this means closing the school when it is not safe enough to avoid claims, etc. then they have to do it. It is not a fault of the schools but a consequence of the state of society (claim culture, etc.)
- I wouldn't look to Arch-Bishops as an example of brains :-D
Brighter than me though
I think you don't give yourself enough credit; you're clearly more switched on than someone who believes that a man was born of a virgin and walked on water, etc. Don't even get me started on that!
- The Ofsted point I haven't really argued about because I don't know whether it would go against the school or not; I suspect not because the head would explain any mitigating circumstances like that in the SEF which would be taken into account by inspectors; but I'm not really sure whether it works that way in practice.
I have no idea, just saw it in another post and thought to myself "I wonder if that is the real reason?".
And lastly; I'd be more than happy to join you in hell - sounds more fun than sitting on a cloud with a harp all day :twisted: I reckon all the best parties will be down there...
Then lets party.........................first there gets the beers in
Quote by Dave__Notts
Some of that is true... Of course teachers are capable of gritting, but employers have to ensure that people are trained to do the job they are being asked to do - it is the same for cleaners who already know how to use a hoover, or warehouse operators who already know how to lift a box - they still have to undergo training because the employer has to cover their back from a legal point of view.
Legislation is not the same for schools as for other industries - we have legislation that is particular to people working with 'children and vunlerable people' (that is the term used by law). I know this because I have been through the training ;-) And these things are not guidance but are mandatory. This is why the county authorities spend millions every year on settlements when people put in claims because their children have been injured at school. No matter how much you and I think that people should be able to 'just get on with it' and use their common sense, schools still get sued for things that are not really avoidable and we have to protect ourselves against this as much as possible otherwise our budgets shrink yet further. I could tell you stories of ridiculous claims against schools that I know of which have nonetheless been settled in favour of the claimant.
Weather forecasts are reasonably accurate to county level, true, but as I said they are not accurate enough at a granular enough level to put targeted measures in place ahead of time. Unless of course we start hiring people and making arrangements in advance every time there is a slight threat of snow, which would be a tragic waste of budget.
As for your idea about getting people on the dole to come in and work - I think it is a great idea! Probably not doable in the short term, but not a bad idea nonetheless. This is not something that schools can just do though, it would have to be set up well in advance with government support - but I do think that it should be pursued (it won't be, because of political reasons, but it should be).
Believe me, the last thing I want to do is make excuses to keep schools closed - I for one would like to be in! It makes my life much more difficult when I miss a week's worth of lessons just to sit at home and chat on a swinging website!
Quote by essex34m
Yeah, I reject that mentality too - not sure where you got it from. You should try reading posts more carefully in the future to avoid making more mistakes like that. I never gave any hint as to what my mentality is; I just said we shouldn't generalise and characterise a nation with one statement.
Quote by chris19802
It doesn't really matter though, I reject the notion of any 'national spirit'
Quote by foxylady2209
And "British spirit"? Really? I think such a thing is a myth...
Quote by essex34m
And "British spirit"? Really? I think such a thing is a myth...
Quote by essex34m
And "British spirit"? Really? I think such a thing is a myth...
Quote by essex34m
And "British spirit"? Really? I think such a thing is a myth...
Quote by HugsnKisses
Road was really icy and slippery this morning so no chance of driving to the school . Ok she could have walked, however her school bags weigh about 2 stone on PE day, she isn't allowed to wear boots at school so would have to walk in flimsy school shoes and risk frostbite falling over...or add more weight to her school bags for the rest of the day.
Its a half hour walk in decent weather up hill and across busy roads full of cars that skid on the take an hour or more in these conditions. Sorry Teachers but no way I am putting a child of mine through that.
I think schools ought to start an hour later and /or finish an hour earlier in snow so that there are less cars on the roads during rush hour , reducing travelling time and increasing safety for to do 4 hours at school than none.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Training for how to grit? Now lets get in the real world here. If your car was stuck on a hill and there was a grit bin to the left hand side. Would you not go get any grit because you are not trained?
A normal person would walk very carefully to the bin. Take some grit out and make a path from the bin to their car with the grit then start to grit around their wheels and then clear a route to get some traction. What you have wrote suggests that teachers are not able to do this. If that is the case then their qualifications and life experiences must have skipped this. I know a couple of teachers and they would laugh at the thought they were incapable to pick up some grit and place it on the floor. There will always be some that cannot be able to undertake the task due to a medical condition.......not a problem, they can look after the kids while the rest do it.
Weather forecasts are very accurate for county geographical areas especially upto 48 hours ahead so prior planning and preparation is a possibilty, with forethought.
The legislation is the same for schools as the rest as industry. They may have different guidance issued by governmental departments but they usually carry a caveat stating it is guidance only.
The main thing to ask here is, why did they close? If it was because of slipping risks then that is not other hazards.....it is snow and ice and this can be managed with forethought and preparation. Buy in more grit, get the caretakers working, get the staff to help out, get the local authority to help if need be. It can be done. There are over a million people on the dole, with lots who are signed onto agencies. Get them in shovelling grit. If anybody is worried about CRB checks then get them in and off the site before the kids arrive. There are ways, but we seem to just close the schools. 260 in Nottinghamshire with some closing where we had to pass them getting to my school, that stayed open.
You think I am arguing over this issue in ignorance but I think you are arguing over it in excuses. But thats what makes us different.......and it would be boring if we all thought the same
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
Completely misinformed again I'm afraid... a school like ours with 2,000+ pupils is on a big site - it would take at least a day to clear and grit it all for a few caretakers. You can't have a 'wet policy of keeping kids indoors' at a secondary with a sixth form attached - you can't just keep them in like that and anyway they have to cross yards and things to get between lessons. Assuming you could clear the site, say overnight if you could get the staff to agree to do it (they aren't obliged to), then a couple of hours of snow during the day could put you back at square one. And as for accidents being a fact of life; I agree about that and agree that the school has done nothing wrong, but (a) it is not just about liability, we would rather the kids were as safe as possible and they will be safer at home under these conditions, and (b) if we let kids in when the walkways, steps, etc. are not safe then it can be argued that we have done something wrong.
Quote by foxylady2209
What is the punishment for having an unauthorised absence? Or an authorised one that is marked as an absence on your record?
Quote by Freckledbird
Tweeky, for you - from the above link:
'Currently pupils who do not turn up to school even in extreme weather have to be marked down as absent. This is not the case, however, if the school shuts. Some parents argue this encourages schools to close when it snows so they can maintain high attendance levels, which are inspected by Ofsted.
This is dismissed by the DfE, which says there is flexibility. It advises "schools that do remain open... should not be penalised because absence rates have risen due to pupils having difficulty in travelling to school". It also says Ofsted inspectors are given additional advice on inspecting attendance which covers periods of extreme weather.
But some local authorities still take a strict approach. In its advice on emergency school closures, including snow, Kent County Council says "not sending your child to school when the school is open will count as an unauthorised absence on your child's record".'
Quote by foxylady2209
I wonder how many children off school for safety reasons are out there unsupervised, slipping and banging their heads with no-one around but some other 12 year-olds to deal with it?
Quote by Dave__Notts
There are a lot of people on here who clearly don't understand the issues. Our school closed not because the staff couldn't get in, and not because anyone actually wanted to skive, but because it just wasn't safe for the students. There have been a few cases over the past few years where students have slipped on icy steps, etc. and been seriously hurt; at least one case that I know of where the student hit his head and later died. That is why some schools will not open unless they can get the steps, walkways and yards clear and keep them that way; because they cannot guarantee the safety of the students in those conditions.
I personally hate having these snow days; I mean, it is okay for the odd day, but when it carries on into three days like it has this time I lose a lot of time with my year 11s who are about to do exams - I need all the time with them that I can get! I'd rather have that time now in school time than have to do more evening/holiday sessions over the coming weeks.
Quote by northeastcoupleuk
cany hike out for ya ppl in here spes the cpls drop aline to say if be up for this a pub or carpark to
Quote by Srne
I myself am not religious in the sense that i am not christian, hindu, catholic etc but i believe in God, in whatever shape or form i dont know, but i am a deeper thinker (im not saying im hyper intelligent u understandto be DESIGNED for us!!
