Are we mourning the man or the music?

26 Jun 2009

we just find it sad when someone dies .. not bothered who they are ..ok it makes a difference if we get to hear about it , know them , had some contact with them ..or in jackos case felt they had contributed some way to our lives in a good way.. but at the end of the day life is precious .. part of the reason we swing is because we both wish to make the very most of every second we have on this planet, 50 years old makes things just that little bit sadder.. it doesnt detract from the grief we feel when a child passes or when someone else does but there isnt a thread for them is there..
so no jokes from us as death isnt funny to us..
a show of sadness as that is how we feel...
nothing bad to say as it will do no one any good...
( big believers in nothing nice to say then say FOOK all)
we posted because we wanted to.
staggy and rose

26 Jun 2009

I know precisely where I was when he died..
atop several inches of prime meat in an impromtu sofa shagging session. lol

Res

I was made to feel like a social leper because I was unphased when Diana died. I was packing for my hols as she was buried- and did well up a little when I saw the tribute atop the coffin simply saying "Mummy." That was down to humanity- not celebrity.
Very shortly afterwards a lady by the name of Mother Theresa of Calcutta died. She didn't get half the pomp and ceremony- but had given so much more. Just goes to show how shallow the worlds media is.
If he did any of the stuff he was accused of, I hope there is a hell just so he can burn in it. If not, then I hope he's at peace.
He was responsible for some blinding tracks either way.

26 Jun 2009

Well Whips I have been called a cock today and now strange. lol

Thats not too bad for a Friday to be honest. wink

Yes I take on board your comment on that, and yes it does sound a bit hypocritical.
Earth I hope did not take offence, christ I even asked her for a shag. biggrin

Unfortunatly she say's she cannot remember what one of those is. Now that is sad. cool

26 Jun 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
Well Whips I have been called a cock today and now strange.
Thats not too bad for a Friday to be honest.
Yes I take on board your comment on that, and yes it does sound a bit hypocritical.
Earth I hope did not take offence, christ I even asked her for a shag.
Unfortunatly she say's she cannot remember what one of those is. Now that is sad.

i didnt take offence, we all have our own opinions and i knew you meant my comment and not me
so do you have a strange cock lol

26 Jun 2009

I'm not mourning the man or his music. I still have the music and I didn't know the man.
I feel compassion for his children and for his family.
I felt the same when Diana died. Shock, disbelief and so very sad for her family.
I believe the above is all part of being human and having the capacity for compassion.
I hope I never lose it.

26 Jun 2009

Quote by Firelizard
I'm not mourning the man or his music. I still have the music and I didn't know the man.
I feel compassion for his children and for his family.
I felt the same when Diana died. Shock, disbelief and so very sad for her family.
I believe the above is all part of being human and having the capacity for compassion.
I hope I never lose it.

god your gorgeous xxxxxxxxxx

27 Jun 2009

Quote by Firelizard
I'm not mourning the man or his music. I still have the music and I didn't know the man.
I feel compassion for his children and for his family.
I felt the same when Diana died. Shock, disbelief and so very sad for her family.
I believe the above is all part of being human and having the capacity for compassion.
I hope I never lose it.

That's fair enough to me. That seems an utterly sensible, human and caring approach to the situation and I think that is what the majority of folk do feel.
What irks me is that if we don't over-indulge ourselves in some public wailing and chest beating, proclaiming that we've lost a saint or other beatific figurehead of a generation, then somehow we are uncaring, lacking compassion, heartless and cold.
It's not that at all. It's just having a sense of perspective.

27 Jun 2009

Quote by earthchild
Well Whips I have been called a cock today and now strange.
Thats not too bad for a Friday to be honest.
Yes I take on board your comment on that, and yes it does sound a bit hypocritical.
Earth I hope did not take offence, christ I even asked her for a shag.
Unfortunatly she say's she cannot remember what one of those is. Now that is sad.

i didnt take offence, we all have our own opinions and i knew you meant my comment and not me
so do you have a strange cock lol
Ermmmm..........Not that I am aware of. :wink:
When we meet people they usually say " oh my God ", but never had the courage to ask what they mean. :wink: :lol:

27 Jun 2009

Quote by Resonance
I'm not mourning the man or his music. I still have the music and I didn't know the man.
I feel compassion for his children and for his family.
I felt the same when Diana died. Shock, disbelief and so very sad for her family.
I believe the above is all part of being human and having the capacity for compassion.
I hope I never lose it.

That's fair enough to me. That seems an utterly sensible, human and caring approach to the situation and I think that is what the majority of folk do feel.
What irks me is that if we don't over-indulge ourselves in some public wailing and chest beating, proclaiming that we've lost a saint or other beatific figurehead of a generation, then somehow we are uncaring, lacking compassion, heartless and cold.
It's not that at all. It's just having a sense of perspective.
Grief is allowed to be without perspective surely?
We embrace and encourage communication by and from those who lose through bereavement however that is accomplished. Do we need to have a set of guidelines for peaceful grief?
I think that its fair to say that no one gets lambasted for notgrieving in a public fashion. Why they should do so for being open in their grief is beyond me.
Though I personally find the almost group hysterical grieving too much and maybe a little odd based on my own sensibilities I don't pretend to start to understand it even raising an eyebrow maybe, what I cant understand is the wish to knock those who want to show a public passive empathy ,
Maybe social conditioning prevents us from usually doing/showing and sharing in such emotion/group emotion that this sort of event is almost a way of doing so in an allowable, if not fathomable fashion.
My own experience of grief that I could not understand was in the wake of the tsunami a few years back . I was shocked of course though because i guess it never really affected me personally I did not grieve and yet millions died. yet later in the year I remember hearing about Earthquake in India/Pakistan and collapsing in a chair and weeping inconsolably for a time. I know my grief is and can be totally without perspective.

27 Jun 2009

What really worries me .....and I've thought long and hard about this..Where will people put the flowers???

27 Jun 2009

Quote by Lost
I'm not mourning the man or his music. I still have the music and I didn't know the man.
I feel compassion for his children and for his family.
I felt the same when Diana died. Shock, disbelief and so very sad for her family.
I believe the above is all part of being human and having the capacity for compassion.
I hope I never lose it.

That's fair enough to me. That seems an utterly sensible, human and caring approach to the situation and I think that is what the majority of folk do feel.
What irks me is that if we don't over-indulge ourselves in some public wailing and chest beating, proclaiming that we've lost a saint or other beatific figurehead of a generation, then somehow we are uncaring, lacking compassion, heartless and cold.
It's not that at all. It's just having a sense of perspective.
Grief is allowed to be without perspective surely?
We embrace and encourage communication by and from those who lose through bereavement however that is accomplished. Do we need to have a set of guidelines for peaceful grief?
I think that its fair to say that no one gets lambasted for notgrieving in a public fashion. Why they should do so for being open in their grief is beyond me.
Though I personally find the almost group hysterical grieving too much and maybe a little odd based on my own sensibilities I don't pretend to start to understand it even raising an eyebrow maybe, what I cant understand is the wish to knock those who want to show a public passive empathy ,
Maybe social conditioning prevents us from usually doing/showing and sharing in such emotion/group emotion that this sort of event is almost a way of doing so in an allowable, if not fathomable fashion.
My own experience of grief that I could not understand was in the wake of the tsunami a few years back . I was shocked of course though because i guess it never really affected me personally I did not grieve and yet millions died. yet later in the year I remember hearing about Earthquake in India/Pakistan and collapsing in a chair and weeping inconsolably for a time. I know my grief is and can be totally without perspective.
I think personal grief can be entirely subjective, and as such, without perspective. But that is because it is personal.
The kind of grief I am talking about is not personal. It is a communal thing. Akin to the Diana and Jade Goody scenes. A rather tasteless pandering to people who we were only vilifying a few months back who now, thanks only to their untimely death, we are now edifying as a great loss to humanity and wailing and gnashing our teeth over to all and sundry. I find that particulalry distasteful and lacking all kinds of perspective. He was a pop star, a good one. That's about it.
As for people who don't grieve not being lambasted by others. That is totally untrue. You only need to look at the Jade Goody thread on here, or indeed the other MJ threads to see those not openly grieving his death have been labelled as cold-hearted, callous, uncaring and whatever by many. I would point out, not grieving his death is not the same as making jokes about it.
Witchy said she was vilified for not joining in the with the general public malaise over Diana. I have entire sympathy with that, the day of her death I was supposed to play a round of golf with some friends, we turned up at the course to find it being closed "out of respect". Why? Was she the patron saint of Golf too? We didn't close the courses after 9/11, or the Tsunami. Indeed at these times one of the rallying calls is "life must go on" so why must we wallow in others entirely subjective and notional form of shallow pity? Respect should be paid I agree, but to indulge in some form of ritualistic tear-shedding because it is the norm and you have the chance to, rather than because you actually have that bond and empathy with the person who has died, is, in my view, tasteless and ugly. It says less about how loved the person who has passed on was and more about the desperate need some people have to show how "important" the deceased was to their own lives and to willingly showcase their own maudlin sorrows on a public scale. Almost a competition of "I loved him/her more than you and I'll prove it by shedding more tears, throwing more flowers, buying more tribute cd's, Twittering my sadness every 30 minutes so MTV can report on it." That's not passive empathy, that's aggressive sympathy/sycophancy. Something entirely different.
That kind of mourning is facile, trite, utterly meaningless and lacking in dignity and integrity.
MJ lived his life in the spotlight when all he wanted was privacy. To deny him that now, and have this media circus of grief following it, is precisely what he would NOT have wanted.
By all means be sad, grieve in your own way. But if you are saying that these people, who have never met him and who like his songs but who then say "I've lost a brother", "The world has lost an angel", "My life will never the same", "I stayed up all night and haven't stopped crying since" have things in perspective, then I am afraid I must, with complete respect, disagree.
If you, like me, are shocked and a little sad, but just wish the family and his friends could be given time away from the intensive, intrusive glare of the media and perhaps arrange something that his fans worldwide could share with each other their grief at his passing, say a memorial service or something similar, then I see no problems with that at all and would respect that a great deal more than this current media circus and these monstrous, bombastic gestures of people and celebrities supposedly showing real grief and loss. If life goes on after 9/11 and the Tsunami, it should go on after Diana, MJ or Jade Goody died.
As you say Lost, there are no guidelines for grief, but it does seem to be that only the death of celebrity people such as Diana, Goody or Jackson that sees this kind of hysterical public reaction. It is a recent invention of the media and one which we can entirely do without I feel. I believe real grief happens between loved ones, family and friends where they can share their experiences and thoughts on the person deceased. The rest of us feel sympathy and empathy (hopefully), not grief. Sadly some people now see this as a failing and feel the need to join in with the grieving to "prove" their allegiance to the said person. The more tears shed, the more they "loved" that person more than anyone else. I find that entirely vulgar. Real grief is humbling, touching and without boundaries, the other is entirely for show. In many cases performed by people who didn't have a good word to say about the person whilst they were alive. It's that two-facedness that I can't abide and will not support.

27 Jun 2009

As always Res, an excellent post.
I do not agree with everything there, but the way you even put some of those things I do not agree with across, I have trouble finding a logical arguement against.
What I would say is that people seem to relate to those in the public eye, almost as if they knew them for real.
People seem to find some comfort in that, a bit like people in soaps. That happens too.
On the day Diana was buried, I woke up early and decided to take my eldest Daughter there. Don't ask me why because it is not like I am a raging Royalist, or loved Diana. It was just a strange feeling that I wanted to go.
We went to Kensington Gardens and saw all the flowers, and then onto Buckingham Palace.
We saw the sons and Charlie line up behind the carriage, and the spooky silence of it all. We listened to the service and the Elton John tribute song, which I tell you what I did not see a dry house outside the Palace after that was sung.
The day I will never forget, and peoples sadness was overwhelming. Even I to this day do not know why I went, but am glad I did for sure.
So if I with my hard nose attitude can have those feelings, then people with a weaker persona than me, will also feel the grief, allbeit in maybe different ways.
I hear the Jackson family are thinking of a public funeral, which I think is a good idea. Because he loved the public and they loved him.
Grief is a funny thing for I still feel guilty to this day when my Mother died, and I just could not shed any tears at all. Not even at her funeral,but still felt the pain.
My reply was not as well worded as yours Res...they never are, but hope it makes some kind of sense.

27 Jun 2009

Quote by Resonance
I'm not mourning the man or his music. I still have the music and I didn't know the man.
I feel compassion for his children and for his family.
I felt the same when Diana died. Shock, disbelief and so very sad for her family.
I believe the above is all part of being human and having the capacity for compassion.
I hope I never lose it.

That's fair enough to me. That seems an utterly sensible, human and caring approach to the situation and I think that is what the majority of folk do feel.
What irks me is that if we don't over-indulge ourselves in some public wailing and chest beating, proclaiming that we've lost a saint or other beatific figurehead of a generation, then somehow we are uncaring, lacking compassion, heartless and cold.
It's not that at all. It's just having a sense of perspective.
Grief is allowed to be without perspective surely?
We embrace and encourage communication by and from those who lose through bereavement however that is accomplished. Do we need to have a set of guidelines for peaceful grief?
I think that its fair to say that no one gets lambasted for notgrieving in a public fashion. Why they should do so for being open in their grief is beyond me.
Though I personally find the almost group hysterical grieving too much and maybe a little odd based on my own sensibilities I don't pretend to start to understand it even raising an eyebrow maybe, what I cant understand is the wish to knock those who want to show a public passive empathy ,
Maybe social conditioning prevents us from usually doing/showing and sharing in such emotion/group emotion that this sort of event is almost a way of doing so in an allowable, if not fathomable fashion.
My own experience of grief that I could not understand was in the wake of the tsunami a few years back . I was shocked of course though because i guess it never really affected me personally I did not grieve and yet millions died. yet later in the year I remember hearing about Earthquake in India/Pakistan and collapsing in a chair and weeping inconsolably for a time. I know my grief is and can be totally without perspective.
I think personal grief can be entirely subjective, I agree It can be subjective it can also be a shared mass experienceand as such, without perspective. But that is because it is personal.
The kind of grief I am talking about is not personal. It is a communal thing. Akin to the Diana and Jade Goody scenes. A rather tasteless pandering to people who we were only vilifying a few months back who now, thanks only to their untimely death, we are now edifying as a great loss to humanity and wailing and gnashing our teeth over to all and sundry. I find that particulalry distasteful and lacking all kinds of perspective. He was a pop star, a good one. That's about it.
As for people who don't grieve not being lambasted by others. That is totally untrueyou forgot the word publicly res if your quoteing me it makes a difference. To explain...there are people who would like to share their feelings together and do so publicly in a topic put together (with reference to the cafe) if others who posted did so in a negative way they were doing so publicly. Those who chose not to declare anything publicly didn't get lambasted. How could they, they didn't post. You only need to look at the Jade Goody thread on here, or indeed the other MJ threads to see those not openly grieving his death have been labelled as cold-hearted, callous, uncaring and whatever by many. I would point out, not grieving his death is not the same as making jokes about it. but they were posting so it was public
Witchy said she was vilified for not joining in the with the general public malaise over Diana. I have entire sympathy with that, the day of her death I was supposed to play a round of golf with some friends, we turned up at the course to find it being closed "out of respect". Why? Was she the patron saint of Golf too? We didn't close the courses after 9/11, or the Tsunami. Indeed at these times one of the rallying calls is "life must go on" In total agreement res so why must we wallow in others entirely subjective - why does grief have to be subjective? In other cultures its acceptable for communal wailing at the loss of a member of a group of people even if that person is not known by all those grieving. Thats not just subjective its a shared emotional response and notional form of shallow pity? Why is it shallow to share in others grief? I can cry because my friend is crying at the loss of something thats important in their life cant I? thats not shallow its empathy Respect should be paid I agree, but to indulge in some form of ritualistic tear-shedding because it is the norm and you have the chance to, rather than because you actually have that bond and empathy with the person who has died, is, in my view, tasteless and ugly.Its ben done since time inmemorial look back just to the news archives of Queen Victoria, Churchill, Monroe, Elvis etc etc OK so with the coming of mass media comes instant news and possibly billions of people all giving responses at once why is that ugly and tasteless It says less about how loved the person who has passed on was and more about the desperate need some people have to show how "important" the deceased was to their own lives but thats OK to do that. He had an impact on my life and others.and to willingly showcase their own maudlin sorrows on a public scale. Almost a competition of "I loved him/her more than you and I'll prove it by shedding more tears, throwing more flowers, buying more tribute cd's, Twittering my sadness every 30 minutes so MTV can report on it." That's not passive empathy, that's aggressive sympathy/sycophancy. Of course there are those very very few self seekers that hit the news because of their own fame do this, but to tar the masses by calling them/us sycophants is way left of centre Something entirely different. But i heard nothing of that in the forums res and i
That kind of mourning is facile, trite, utterly meaningless and lacking in dignity and integrity. For the very few sycophants that are amongst those mourning i'd very much agree with you.
MJ lived his life in the spotlight when all he wanted was privacy. To deny him that now, and have this media circus of grief following it, is precisely what he would NOT have wanted.
I think your right res though being subjective I'd suggest and hope that he would feel aomewhat overawed and humbled at the response to his death.
By all means be sad, grieve in your own way. But if you are saying that these people, who have never met him and who like his songs but who then say "I've lost a brother", "The world has lost an angel", "My life will never the same", "I stayed up all night and haven't stopped crying since" have things in perspective, then I am afraid I must, with complete respect, disagree.
I certainly would like to assure that I havent said these things. I'd take issue with the "I've lost a brother", "The world has lost an angel", "My life will never be the same" but as for the staying up all night crying bit - thats fine its OK to do that
If you, like me, are shocked and a little sad, but just wish the family and his friends could be given time away from the intensive, intrusive glare of the media and perhaps arrange something that his fans worldwide could share with each other their grief at his passing, say a memorial service or something similar, Totally agree with you res, or a concert with the proceeds going to chrities that MJ supported mayb? yeah fantastic idea. then I see no problems with that at all and would respect that a great deal more than this current media circus and these monstrous, bombastic gestures of people and celebrities these are the very few sycophants you mentioned earlier though just to reiterate that the mass of people genuinly feel grief in a non sycophantic way supposedly showing real grief and loss. If life goes on after 9/11 and the Tsunami, it should go on after Diana, MJ or Jade Goody died.
As you say Lost, there are no guidelines for grief, but it does seem to be that only the death of celebrity people such as Diana, Goody or Jackson that sees this kind of hysterical public reaction. It is a recent invention of the media and one which we can entirely do without I feel.I'm not so sure its so much an invention of media, not even recent in mass media history terms its been there right along with it from the start, Going back to things such as earthquakes and tsunami's etc - pre mass media no one could react in the same way. You could even say that because of mass media things such as Live Aid become possible - uniting the masses in a worthwhile common cause and Live aids still going on. OK that has relevance but throws up even more stuff about the human condition I guess. I believe real grief happens between loved ones, family and friends where they can share their experiences and thoughts on the person deceased. th The rest of us feel sympathy and empathy (hopefully), not grief.It is and can be grief why not? Grief is fine res to feel a loss is OK and to each of us that feels grief it is going to feel different to a lesser or greater degree. and Sadly some people now see this as a failing and feel the need to join in with the grieving to "prove" their allegiance to the said person. The more tears shed, the more they "loved" that person more than anyone else. I find that entirely vulgar. Real grief is humbling, touching and without boundaries, the other is entirely for show. In many cases performed by people who didn't have a good word to say about the person whilst they were alive. It's that two-facedness that I can't abide and will not support. There maybe a lot of truths in this last bit res but for the very fewm as you have said. 'some people'. No one can stop from being interested in the gossip about a celebrity but the death can cause a lot to think on the value of that gossip or hearsay and to be able to, after a persons passing, think passed that to the humabity and the human behind it all and feel a little grief for a just a while.
After all in the grand scheme of things and the years of our lives it really is only a few moments out.
I'd of loved this chat in the pub over a pint with you res lol

and afterwards when our partners were rolling their eyes at each other and looking at their watches we could do a club biggrin

27 Jun 2009

Quote by earthchild
neither
couldnt stand the music or any of his families for that matter
couldnt stand the man
dont give a flying fook that he has gone

I'm the same as earthy.
If he had cured cancer, or somesuch i would morn the passing of a great man. Otherwise, people die each day, he's just done what we will all do sometime or other.

28 Jun 2009

I measure the quantity of a person by how much joy they borught to others lives. Diana and Jacko (however wacko)brought untold happiness to thousands and millions. Their passing means there is that much less love in the world and that really is sad whether at the family or the fan level.
I know not whether the guy was guilty of the accusations made against him ...he will be judged by higher authorities than I have to take on balance the phenomenom of the guy.
Examine his list of hits and he has at least 20 records that never made it to no.1. They are all so well known you would bet money they made no.1 . The guy was talented beyond belief.

28 Jun 2009

Firstly, I'll try and keep this short, I am sure most people are fed up with my burblings already.
Mr K, A really thoughtful post and well explained and it kind of provides me with a lovely example of what I am trying to get at.
Mr Lost, a pint would have been most agreeable, especially in this somewhat balmy weather and while the thought of me hitting a club would be quite frightening for many, I'd have given it a go!
I think we are kind of arguing the same point, but just from different viewpoints. I have no qualms whatsoever with people privately or publicly expressing their sorrow over an incident and I think when a major public figure dies, who is much loved by many, then a fitting tribute should be found so people can pay their respects. As Mr K illustrated with his Diana service. I had absolutely no qualms about that and there was much about that day to be admired.
What I dislike is the fact that from the moment they die, until that time, every facet of our life is governed by what happened. The saturation of coverage on TV, papers and radio beggars belief. There is an almost explicit exhorting to join in with the pseudo-grief being portrayed, otherwise you are seen to be uncaring or unkind.
I have no problems with MJ threads saying "MJ, such a loss. Music lost a star." I do have problems with messages along the lines of "My life will never be the same..." from someone who is 17 and has listened to four of his songs.
I'll preserve my tears for those I love and who I can readily relate to in a real and tangible sense. I'll never grieve the loss of a famous person who, while I may have greatly admired their work, I never really knew. I have sympathy, empathy and I will be saddened by it. But that is it.
There are a great many other ways to express ones sadness and sympathy, grief even. This for example.

"Anything for him, but mindless good taste"

28 Jun 2009

seem's like an opportune time "to bury bad news" as many an mi5/mi6 operative would say ? farah toilet majors went the day before after a year fighting cancer and as a previous contributor said "25,000 children died unecessarily" i'm more inclined to think quincy jones was the geneiuos behind jacko's material but hey, what do i know ? youv'e noticed i cant spele genes i hope. 100,000 iraq's died in the first week of "shock and awe" by the way and numerous pakistani's and afghans are being bombed every day in the name of "the war on terror" and bit by bit, all our civil liberties are being taken away and our jobs lost. so i will not give more than a passing thought to "the king of pop"

28 Jun 2009

Quote by gulsonroad30664
seem's like an opportune time "to bury bad news" as many an mi5/mi6 operative would say ? farah toilet majors went the day before after a year fighting cancer and as a previous contributor said "25,000 children died unecessarily" i'm more inclined to think quincy jones was the geneiuos behind jacko's material but hey, what do i know ? youv'e noticed i cant spele genes i hope. 100,000 iraq's died in the first week of "shock and awe" by the way and numerous pakistani's and afghans are being bombed every day in the name of "the war on terror" and bit by bit, all our civil liberties are being taken away and our jobs lost. so i will not give more than a passing thought to "the king of pop"

So as the threads say's your not " mourning the man or the music " then?
As for Afgan and Pakistan..... :gagged:

29 Jun 2009

Quote by jumptoit
Yeah but the fella down the road would not have the millions of dollars to buy silence, or the fame and blind support of 50 million fans!
Also easy to go to court as Michael Jackson and be found not guilty........... For my example of American law and its addiction to fame and personallities i use the name OJ Simpson, i suppose as he was found not guilty that must be true also???

I feel I have to come back on this, because it just does not make sense..
what you're saying is that anybody who is rich and/or famous and gets accused of something, is automatically guilty and if found not guilty by a court, then he MUST have bought the verdict..
yes, I admit there is a possibility for this to happen..but unless I'm sat in the jury and see money changing hands and evidence being ignored, I don't feel I'm allowed to make the sort of statements you shoot out with, as far as I know, no direct knowledge of the case whatsoever.
mind you, I have no idea if MJ was guilty or not..we will never know, probably, unless all the papers of the trial are laid bare and analized by a reputable neutral party. (does something like that exist?)
that said, I definitely don't "mourn" as such..I don't really believe in mourning, as I rather prefer celebrating. I cannot feel overly sad about what is ultimately a fact of life. close relatives and friends I will miss, and the manner of one or the other's death will occasionaly remind me of the frialty of life and our ultimately small relevance on anything beyond our immediate area of impact.
it is however sad that a great talent passed away, because it lessens humanity as such. our society is often measured by the works of genius and by the individual efforts of exceptional people. there would have been no renaissance without the likes of Leonardo da Vinci. the Incas and Mayas would still thrive if not for the ambitions of the Pizarro, Cortes and others.. our world would have a very different shape without History being punctuated by people like Martin Luther, Einstein, Elvis, Marie Curie..
I think MJ has a place amongst those people... certainly as far as the history of music goes.
that he was an exceptional talent should be clear also to those who did not appreciate his music.
if music is art, and it has been so often said that music can "help" people in the most different circumstances of life, (who has not spent a minute or two in selecting the right soundtrack to his proposal to his wife to be? who hasn't requested one or the other significant song to get the dancefloor moving and have a great time, maybe even scoring a lifechanging date?) then the worldwide success of MJ's songs and the impact he had on the music industry and showbiz in general surely deserves recognition.
I'm sure the man himself, troubled and/or despicable as he was will be to some extent forgotten, maybe even white-washed of all his "faults"..but his music will be an inspirations for years to come.. and will have been important in so many people's live that it really doesn't make any difference if we mourn him or not..his mark has been made strongly enough already, even without anybody displaying any sign of grief
what I do feel sad about is that there might have been more of the same where the great tracks came from...so in that way MJ's death is a loss

1 Jul 2009

Hi Melting Pot no what i was saying is such.... Michael Jackson paid 20 million dollars to the family of the child he allegedly fiddled with and the case went away, the man down the road could not do that fact!
OJ Simpson even to the dumbest of people was guilty of murder (and has since been sent down for a further gun crime) but was found not guilty based on the person he was and the trial he was given again fact.
This was not me getting at Michael Jackson but simply starting a debate on wether people were "mourning" the man or the music and was not intended to go down any other road.
Cassie

3 Jul 2009

It's strange but I would have normally included my own views on this subject.
Yet, I haven't due to in some manner being sad, not to the point of depression. I feel as if the life of Micheal Jackson says's in some manner about the state or morals of existence.
The need that an individual looks for the recognition of others to complete them, to such an extent this relationship becomes destructive.
A Farther that as a victim of extreme Racism forces & physically beats his own Children into Musical Perfection. The result being fortune & self-reliance / independence from at the time openly racist America.
One must remember that before Sports the only national recognition an African-American could achieve was via Entertainment especially Music.

3 Jul 2009

The centre of this is a 5yr Old Child, whom the Farther instantly recognizes a Genius inhabits his infant.
This leads to the Child being the focus of his Father's blind mad obsession yet far too young to understand the reasons behind this.
Thus the Child begins to blaming himself / hating himself.
The Child becomes a Man yet doesn't know how to relate to people, has no boundaries even calls himself or believes that he is Royalty:
The King of Pop & The British Royal Crest on the Gates of his own 'Kingdom'.
Becomes bizarre with inappropriate behaviour of a serious nature being discovered.
Then dies.

3 Jul 2009

Therefore in a short summary that's the life story of Micheal Jackson.
Who was more twisted & strange, him or the world confused

:
Yet, his impact on my life was amazing.
He transcended at his peak all boundaries...
I could listen to him as a 10yr Old & my Grandmother
could listen.
We would dance to his Music & talk heated debates about why our favourite song was better than our friends in the School Playground.
Then his Video's where events, you just knew. The excitement & wonder at the innovation.
I read an extract of a new book about the Music Reviews that John Peel did for various Newspapers & Magazines. One extract was about Madonna at Wembley Stadium during the 'True Blue' era.
4 out of 10.

3 Jul 2009

The other article was again at Wembley Stadium, this time it's Micheal Jackson's 'Bad' Tour.
Peel gives the early impression that he's not too fussed about Jackson. He only attended to do his review & take his very young Children.
Yet the longer the show went the more impressed Peel became to the extent that the conclusion of his article was Musical Perfection incorporating Dance.
This was from John Peel & left me shocked at how good that concert must have been to earn such praise.
I wasn't about the ego of the later stages but that trilogy:
'Off The Wall', 'Thriller' & 'Bad'.
Are amazing, buy the Special Editions ( ) for some amazing Demo Version's especially 'Don't Stop Till You Get Enough' from 'Off The Wall'.
True Genius.

3 Jul 2009

Dazzlingly wonderful post(s) Wunderhorse.

3 Jul 2009

Quote by benrums0n
Dazzlingly wonderful post(s) Wunderhorse.

Dear benrums0n,
Many thanks for the above post.
That's the kindest thing anyone has placed in the Forum about me, since I've joined this site in 2004 redface

What people forget is that while certain people should
be punished (Law) & / or judged (The Court of Public Opinion) if they have broken the Law or Moral Law's... The Abuse of Children, Animal Cruelty, Drunk / Drug Driving etc.
We must also understand the origins of that person & what made them do what they did.
Life, in my view is a mixture of a Human's own Moral Personal Responsibility & the impact that Life has had on them.
If we have this attitude then life would improve & the ills of our Society would be properly dealt with.
This should be remembered when reviewing any person & in this case Micheal Jackson.
Still it's no excuse for a person to have behaviour justified especially if they have harmed another Person.

3 Jul 2009

As correctly stated by a previous poster, people die all the time, indeed it is the most natural thing on earth. I do understand grief, trust me I have lost people to whom I was very close. But I am puzzled as to why anyone would still be mourning the loss of such an indulgent and abusive stranger. Jackson lived a charmed life, certainly as an adult, and although he might have inherited the desire to abuse children from his father, he still used the money to put himself above the law.
I wouldn't allow his music or images in my house when he was alive, and nothing has happened to change that.

4 Jul 2009

Has everyone forgot that Farrah Faucet also died on the same day as Michael Jackson, nothing much was said about that and the woman died from cancer. Also Ed McMahon an American comedian and game show host.

4 Jul 2009

Quote by lois
Has everyone forgot that Farrah Faucet also died on the same day as Michael Jackson, nothing much was said about that and the woman died from cancer. Also Ed McMahon an American comedian and game show host.

I think we all know that but....think Jacko was a tad more well known.
I cannot think of anything other than Charlies Angels that she done, except looking very pretty.
It stands to reason that Jacko will get all the airtime and publicity.

6 Jul 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
Has everyone forgot that Farrah Faucet also died on the same day as Michael Jackson, nothing much was said about that and the woman died from cancer. Also Ed McMahon an American comedian and game show host.

I think we all know that but....think Jacko was a tad more well known.
I cannot think of anything other than Charlies Angels that she done, except looking very pretty.
It stands to reason that Jacko will get all the airtime and publicity.
Think thats a bit harsh, although not an amazing actress, In her day she was everywhere lol

Farrah Fawcett (February 2, 1947 â€“ June 25, 2009) was an American actress. A multiple Golden Globe and Emmy Award nominee, Fawcett rose to international fame when she first appeared as private investigator Jill Munroe in the TV series Charlie's Angels in 1976. Fawcett later appeared off-Broadway to the approval of critics and in highly rated television movies in roles often challenging (The Burning Bed, Nazi Hunter: The Beate Klarsfeld Story, Poor Little Rich Girl: The Barbara Hutton Story, Margaret Bourke-White) and sometimes unsympathetic (Small Sacrifices). Fawcett was also a pop culture figure whose hairstyle was emulated by millions of young women and whose poster sales broke records, making her an international sex symbol in the 1970s and 1980s. While her impact was particularly strong on the teens of the 1970s, her appeal spreads over multiple generations.