So the House of commons voted overwhelmingly to support military intervention in Libya.
How do the member of SH vote on this matter
For the record I am a No!
Sex God
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Military intervention in Libya
Sex God
never have i felt soo uneasy about anything this country has done in my lifetime .. been shaking my head lots..
im no expert of course but..
I just keep imagining if it were the other way round and Libyans came to our.. ahem, cough
' assistance ' with their bombs.
im no expert of course but..
I just keep imagining if it were the other way round and Libyans came to our.. ahem, cough
' assistance ' with their bombs.
Sex God
No .....nothing more to add
Bloody pressed results :doh: so couldn't vote.
On this conflict, as many others, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For two weeks people were asking why we are not getting involved, and now we are why are we getting involved.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as either way you could have the deaths of thousands on your hands. I feel sorry for the everyday Libyan.....as these Rebels will probably be a Gaddiffi in the making, and it will just be the people who suffer. It is a sad state of affairs indeed.
Dave_Notts
On this conflict, as many others, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For two weeks people were asking why we are not getting involved, and now we are why are we getting involved.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as either way you could have the deaths of thousands on your hands. I feel sorry for the everyday Libyan.....as these Rebels will probably be a Gaddiffi in the making, and it will just be the people who suffer. It is a sad state of affairs indeed.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
Bloody pressed results :doh: so couldn't vote.
On this conflict, as many others, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For two weeks people were asking why we are not getting involved, and now we are why are we getting involved.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as either way you could have the deaths of thousands on your hands. I feel sorry for the everyday Libyan.....as these Rebels will probably be a Gaddiffi in the making, and it will just be the people who suffer. It is a sad state of affairs indeed.
Dave_Notts
I dont disagree with anything you have written Dave, but my fear is, will this actually help any one, more likely we will be hated even more by most of the population of Libya, rather than thanked by any of them.
Quote by Bluefish2009
Bloody pressed results :doh: so couldn't vote.
On this conflict, as many others, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For two weeks people were asking why we are not getting involved, and now we are why are we getting involved.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as either way you could have the deaths of thousands on your hands. I feel sorry for the everyday Libyan.....as these Rebels will probably be a Gaddiffi in the making, and it will just be the people who suffer. It is a sad state of affairs indeed.
Dave_Notts
I dont disagree with anything you have written Dave, but my fear is, will this actually help any one, more likely we will be hated even more by most of the population of Libya, rather than thanked by any of them.
Countries or their people do not love the countries who liberate them from themselves........or at least some of the population don't, but some of the population will. I can't think of one nation that has been saved from itself by war where every member of that population has loved the liberator.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
Bloody pressed results :doh: so couldn't vote.
On this conflict, as many others, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For two weeks people were asking why we are not getting involved, and now we are why are we getting involved.
I am glad I do not have to make the decision as either way you could have the deaths of thousands on your hands. I feel sorry for the everyday Libyan.....as these Rebels will probably be a Gaddiffi in the making, and it will just be the people who suffer. It is a sad state of affairs indeed.
Dave_Notts
I dont disagree with anything you have written Dave, but my fear is, will this actually help any one, more likely we will be hated even more by most of the population of Libya, rather than thanked by any of them.
Countries or their people do not love the countries who liberate them from themselves........or at least some of the population don't, but some of the population will. I can't think of one nation that has been saved from itself by war where every member of that population has loved the liberator.
Dave_Notts
Thing is, no one will actually be liberated at the end of all this.
Sex God
Generally I am against one country taking miltary action against another unless the second has attempted to invade/harm the other. But, of course it is impossible to set a general rule.
My unbreakable rule would be - if you are sending anyone, DON'T send the Americans. They have proved over and over that they cannot (or don't bother to) distinguish between friend and foe, civilian and military. Look at that poor woman who had been kidnapped and got killed by her 'rescuers'. Their recruitment seems to focus on young men who are gung-ho, shoot first - don't bother asking questions types. Again, harsh to generalise, but the news reports are out there.
My unbreakable rule would be - if you are sending anyone, DON'T send the Americans. They have proved over and over that they cannot (or don't bother to) distinguish between friend and foe, civilian and military. Look at that poor woman who had been kidnapped and got killed by her 'rescuers'. Their recruitment seems to focus on young men who are gung-ho, shoot first - don't bother asking questions types. Again, harsh to generalise, but the news reports are out there.
Quote by Bluefish2009
Thing is, no one will actually be liberated at the end of all this.
Whoever has been? Look at the whole of history and look at the liberated. Who has ever been liberated from themselves? This one will be no different.
I know people bring up Zimbabwe as an example of us not "liberating" as there is no oil. That is so true, but conversely to this as the powers have not involved themselves the guy is still abusing his power and his people are dying. This country has been left to its own devices, yet the people suffer. As good neighbours, looking on do we as a nation feel any guilt that we are allowing these people to die while we do nothing?
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
Thing is, no one will actually be liberated at the end of all this.
Whoever has been? Look at the whole of history and look at the liberated. Who has ever been liberated from themselves? This one will be no different.
I know people bring up Zimbabwe as an example of us not "liberating" as there is no oil. That is so true, but conversely to this as the powers have not involved themselves the guy is still abusing his power and his people are dying. This country has been left to its own devices, yet the people suffer. As good neighbours, looking on do we as a nation feel any guilt that we are allowing these people to die while we do nothing?
Dave_Notts
My problem is always 'do we have the right?'. In one view it is incredibly arrogant to move in and say 'we, the great people of this great country, will rescue you'. Very Flashheart. On the other, as you say, shouldn't we feel gulity for not stepping in?
It's not like we are watching a child being beaten up - these dying people are adults. And adults under the sway of a cruel dictator have often risen up and freed themselves - or at least replaced one dictator with another. What gives us the right/responsiblity to interfere?
Quote by foxylady2209
My problem is always 'do we have the right?'. In one view it is incredibly arrogant to move in and say 'we, the great people of this great country, will rescue you'. Very Flashheart. On the other, as you say, shouldn't we feel gulity for not stepping in?
Agreed
Quote by foxylady2209
It's not like we are watching a child being beaten up - these dying people are adults. And adults under the sway of a cruel dictator have often risen up and freed themselves - or at least replaced one dictator with another. What gives us the right/responsiblity to interfere?
The problem comes in when those that are being killed do not have the ability to fight back. How did the Rawandan massacres happen? How did the holocaust happen? The victims say that they did not have the ability to fight back, even when they knew what was happening. Sometimes someone has to step in or more die.
I am not saying all interventions are right or even this one is right, I am just saying what would happen if we do nothing at all, ever. It is just hard chips to you that do not live in a democatic country........doesn't sound to charitable to me
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
My problem is always 'do we have the right?'. In one view it is incredibly arrogant to move in and say 'we, the great people of this great country, will rescue you'. Very Flashheart. On the other, as you say, shouldn't we feel gulity for not stepping in?
Agreed
Quote by foxylady2209
It's not like we are watching a child being beaten up - these dying people are adults. And adults under the sway of a cruel dictator have often risen up and freed themselves - or at least replaced one dictator with another. What gives us the right/responsiblity to interfere?
The problem comes in when those that are being killed do not have the ability to fight back.
Dave_Notts
im not sure that is the problem..
having the ability to fight back just prolongs conflict.. im seeing things slightly differently these days, one persons right is anothers wrong , we are being played as puppets and that disgusts me, i feel no guilt for what this country does as it has long since been my country, its my world, fuck boundries of any kind, no one ever had a right to impose them on me or me on them, i have no religion nor do i care for politics .. it pretty much all stinks and although we like to think our politicians differ from each other, lib, lab, con etc etc ,, im sure they actually dont, tell a child that has had its legs blown off that supports gadaffi cameron is right and then tell the orphaned squaddies son that Gadaffi was right,, the answer will be pretty much the same.. ''what the fuck has it to do with me?'' these days that is pretty much what i care for, the poor kids and the other innocent that care not about their countries dictators or military powers that wish to dictate in their country,, all the same to the kid on crutches or the child with no Dad,, i feel a little bit like a 2011 hippy these days .. make love not war, give peace a chance.. and fuck the money grabbing wankers that treat us like sheep.
john winds folk up on here and i can see why, but if you take nothing else from what he says but this ,,, all of you do not feel comfortable with what you are fed by the media, your mps and what you have been taught to believe is right.. the truth im certain is so shit that if there was a hell wwe would all certainly burn in it.. but there aint so .. who gives a fuck?
Quote by wild rose and the stag
im not sure that is the problem..
having the ability to fight back just prolongs conflict.. im seeing things slightly differently these days, one persons right is anothers wrong , we are being played as puppets and that disgusts me, i feel no guilt for what this country does as it has long since been my country, its my world, fuck boundries of any kind, no one ever had a right to impose them on me or me on them, i have no religion nor do i care for politics .. it pretty much all stinks and although we like to think our politicians differ from each other, lib, lab, con etc etc ,, im sure they actually dont, tell a child that has had its legs blown off that supports gadaffi cameron is right and then tell the orphaned squaddies son that Gadaffi was right,, the answer will be pretty much the same.. ''what the fuck has it to do with me?'' these days that is pretty much what i care for, the poor kids and the other innocent that care not about their countries dictators or military powers that wish to dictate in their country,, all the same to the kid on crutches or the child with no Dad,, i feel a little bit like a 2011 hippy these days .. make love not war, give peace a chance.. and fuck the money grabbing wankers that treat us like sheep.
john winds folk up on here and i can see why, but if you take nothing else from what he says but this ,,, all of you do not feel comfortable with what you are fed by the media, your mps and what you have been taught to believe is right.. the truth im certain is so shit that if there was a hell wwe would all certainly burn in it.. but there aint so .. who gives a fuck?
That is a good point WRATS. I too care for everybody and their right to life. So using Zimbabwe as an example, are you feeling good that people die by his hands and we do nothing but watch them die. Is this the way it should be?
I am not hoping we do anything in Zimbabwe at all just to be clear on that. The main reason is that it was once a British colony and if we get involved then it could be seen as Imperialism.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
im not sure that is the problem..
having the ability to fight back just prolongs conflict.. im seeing things slightly differently these days, one persons right is anothers wrong , we are being played as puppets and that disgusts me, i feel no guilt for what this country does as it has long since been my country, its my world, fuck boundries of any kind, no one ever had a right to impose them on me or me on them, i have no religion nor do i care for politics .. it pretty much all stinks and although we like to think our politicians differ from each other, lib, lab, con etc etc ,, im sure they actually dont, tell a child that has had its legs blown off that supports gadaffi cameron is right and then tell the orphaned squaddies son that Gadaffi was right,, the answer will be pretty much the same.. ''what the fuck has it to do with me?'' these days that is pretty much what i care for, the poor kids and the other innocent that care not about their countries dictators or military powers that wish to dictate in their country,, all the same to the kid on crutches or the child with no Dad,, i feel a little bit like a 2011 hippy these days .. make love not war, give peace a chance.. and fuck the money grabbing wankers that treat us like sheep.
john winds folk up on here and i can see why, but if you take nothing else from what he says but this ,,, all of you do not feel comfortable with what you are fed by the media, your mps and what you have been taught to believe is right.. the truth im certain is so shit that if there was a hell wwe would all certainly burn in it.. but there aint so .. who gives a fuck?
That is a good point WRATS. I too care for everybody and their right to life. So using Zimbabwe as an example, are you feeling good that people die by his hands and we do nothing but watch them die. Is this the way it should be?
I am not hoping we do anything in Zimbabwe at all just to be clear on that. The main reason is that it was once a British colony and if we get involved then it could be seen as Imperialism.
Dave_Notts
im answering you out of curtsey .. as you asked, but im afraid i know very little of Zimbabwe.. shit happens all over , we are not the worlds police and im tired of the UK trying to be that or at least using that as an excuse to impose what they beieive to be right or suits their cause.. one thing for sure , im not part of this 'we' you speak of.. i do what i can.. well both rose and i do what we can for who we can.. as i said earlier i feel no guilt for what the powers that be do around the world, i do feel sorrow for their victims..and like i said disgust at the spuporters of there crimes, we do do our bit fore the victims we come in contact with.. cant say any more on that subject.
when i drive around the world and in particular the USA a place Rose and i dearly love i feel hatred for anyone that imposes boundries on my short life , i made a joke once that i would stay in the USA beyond my visa and not leave until a native american asked me to, then id just fight him for the right to stay a winner takes all scenario as before.. the cowboys i was chatting too looked uneasy but none of then could fault my argument.
The control thing starts from very early in life.. its been around for centuries and i honeslty think its what some call civilisation.. this is not the place to discuss it as you have seen already it gets way too emotive so ill leave it at that but...
its my world.. my life .. wish we could all just enjoy it a little more before its over
staggy
Quote by wild rose and the stag
im answering you out of curtsey .. as you asked, but im afraid i know very little of Zimbabwe.. shit happens all over , we are not the worlds police and im tired of the UK trying to be that or at least using that as an excuse to impose what they beieive to be right or suits their cause.. one thing for sure , im not part of this 'we' you speak of.. i do what i can.. well both rose and i do what we can for who we can.. as i said earlier i feel no guilt for what the powers that be do around the world, i do feel sorrow for their victims..and like i said disgust at the spuporters of there crimes, we do do our bit fore the victims we come in contact with.. cant say any more on that subject.
when i drive around the world and in particular the USA a place Rose and i dearly love i feel hatred for anyone that imposes boundries on my short life , i made a joke once that i would stay in the USA beyond my visa and not leave until a native american asked me to, then id just fight him for the right to stay a winner takes all scenario as before.. the cowboys i was chatting too looked uneasy but none of then could fault my argument.
The control thing starts from very early in life.. its been around for centuries and i honeslty think its what some call civilisation.. this is not the place to discuss it as you have seen already it gets way too emotive so ill leave it at that but...
its my world.. my life .. wish we could all just enjoy it a little more before its over
staggy
You are right, shit happens. So if these people do not ever come into contact with you then apart from feeling sorry for them, they should just die? I know we have no guilt over what the powers that be have done to their people, yet when we (as a nation) or other nations have the power to do something about it, but do nothing are we not culpable in this one world/one people idea? These people that are dying would also love to enjoy it a little more before it is over.........but their tyranny prevents it
Myself? I have no idea as to solve any of this. Every theory put forward has flaws in it. I wish people could live in harmony but it has never been the human way yet. Hopefully as a species we change
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
im answering you out of curtsey .. as you asked, but im afraid i know very little of Zimbabwe.. shit happens all over , we are not the worlds police and im tired of the UK trying to be that or at least using that as an excuse to impose what they beieive to be right or suits their cause.. one thing for sure , im not part of this 'we' you speak of.. i do what i can.. well both rose and i do what we can for who we can.. as i said earlier i feel no guilt for what the powers that be do around the world, i do feel sorrow for their victims..and like i said disgust at the spuporters of there crimes, we do do our bit fore the victims we come in contact with.. cant say any more on that subject.
when i drive around the world and in particular the USA a place Rose and i dearly love i feel hatred for anyone that imposes boundries on my short life , i made a joke once that i would stay in the USA beyond my visa and not leave until a native american asked me to, then id just fight him for the right to stay a winner takes all scenario as before.. the cowboys i was chatting too looked uneasy but none of then could fault my argument.
The control thing starts from very early in life.. its been around for centuries and i honeslty think its what some call civilisation.. this is not the place to discuss it as you have seen already it gets way too emotive so ill leave it at that but...
its my world.. my life .. wish we could all just enjoy it a little more before its over
staggy
You are right, shit happens. So if these people do not ever come into contact with you then apart from feeling sorry for them, they should just die? I know we have no guilt over what the powers that be have done to their people, yet when we (as a nation) or other nations have the power to do something about it, but do nothing are we not culpable in this one world/one people idea? These people that are dying would also love to enjoy it a little more before it is over.........but their tyranny prevents it
Myself? I have no idea as to solve any of this. Every theory put forward has flaws in it. I wish people could live in harmony but it has never been the human way yet. Hopefully as a species we change
Dave_NottsDave why do you think they should just die? i never said that.. im fully aware i have not one jot of control as to what happens to them, dont put words in my mouth. whether they come into contact with me or not is irrelevant to my feelings on the matter..
however within my means i can do something for the unfortunate ones that i do come into contact with.. ''we as a nation''.. fuck that .. not my nation, ive said several times its my world and so are the people in it. i can sit here and spout off about what this country should do till the cows come home.. wont make any difference .. my life isnt that important.. it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.. my muslim and jewish and christian brothers etc etc can all fight it out amongst themselves and the oil rich sultans and sheiks , politicians and uber powerful can join them.. i will not be able to stop it.. Dave if you can make a difference go make one.. i know my limits and i can do fuck all dude..
i can do the politically correct bullshit but too old and i think wise now..
Sex God
I wonder if we know too much. Bear with me, it may make sense eventually. A hundred years ago we had the beginnings of the telephone/telegraph. Before then news reports could be weeks old. We simply didn't hear about the vast majority of things that happened in the world - good and bad.
Now we hear so much more - we often witness the most appalling tragedies first hand and often over and over again. For most of them we (the populace) can do nothing ourselves. We can do precious little with charitable giving.
So what CAN we do? Worry, fret, feel guilty. How does that help - them or us? We can send an email to our mp demanding they do something about it. But there's no reason to imagine that will have any effect apart from assuage a little of the guilt.
Every year we hear about bad tornadoes/hurricanes, earthquakes, that terrible flooding we saw more than once, epidemics in refugee camps, crop failures, genocide, wars, drought, farmers forced to grow Opium poppies instead of food.
A sensitive person could be ground down by guilt for all the suffering they a) bear no responsibility for creating and b) can do bugger all about.
I suppose what I'm arguing is that maybe it's better not to know about things we can't do something to fix. The government already does a lot for non-UK disasters and I know I would never want to be the one who chooses which events don't get the help. My feeling is - I will donate some money to a cause I feel makes a significant difference (WaterAid) and I choose positively not to fret about the rest. I'll sympathise but it won't damage my life - my suffering guilt won't make anyone else's physical suffering reduce.
A small example of the dilema.
Kenyan farmers grow green beans and they are flown over here - what do I do, support African farmers scraping a living, support my local growers who are similarly scraping a living or grow my own and 'save the planet'? No, I don't know what I 'should' do either. I have chosen not to purchase any food from abroad if I can get it from the UK and not from (say) Kent if I can get it more locally.
Now we hear so much more - we often witness the most appalling tragedies first hand and often over and over again. For most of them we (the populace) can do nothing ourselves. We can do precious little with charitable giving.
So what CAN we do? Worry, fret, feel guilty. How does that help - them or us? We can send an email to our mp demanding they do something about it. But there's no reason to imagine that will have any effect apart from assuage a little of the guilt.
Every year we hear about bad tornadoes/hurricanes, earthquakes, that terrible flooding we saw more than once, epidemics in refugee camps, crop failures, genocide, wars, drought, farmers forced to grow Opium poppies instead of food.
A sensitive person could be ground down by guilt for all the suffering they a) bear no responsibility for creating and b) can do bugger all about.
I suppose what I'm arguing is that maybe it's better not to know about things we can't do something to fix. The government already does a lot for non-UK disasters and I know I would never want to be the one who chooses which events don't get the help. My feeling is - I will donate some money to a cause I feel makes a significant difference (WaterAid) and I choose positively not to fret about the rest. I'll sympathise but it won't damage my life - my suffering guilt won't make anyone else's physical suffering reduce.
A small example of the dilema.
Kenyan farmers grow green beans and they are flown over here - what do I do, support African farmers scraping a living, support my local growers who are similarly scraping a living or grow my own and 'save the planet'? No, I don't know what I 'should' do either. I have chosen not to purchase any food from abroad if I can get it from the UK and not from (say) Kent if I can get it more locally.
Quote by wild rose and the stag
Dave why do you think they should just die?
They will die because nothing has happened to stop their death. Whether by this country or another entity e.g. UN or other
Quote by wild rose and the stag
i never said that.. im fully aware i have not one jot of control as to what happens to them, dont put words in my mouth. whether they come into contact with me or not is irrelevant to my feelings on the matter..
however within my means i can do something for the unfortunate ones that i do come into contact with.. ''we as a nation''.. fuck that .. not my nation, ive said several times its my world and so are the people in it. i can sit here and spout off about what this country should do till the cows come home.. wont make any difference .. my life isnt that important.. it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.. my muslim and jewish and christian brothers etc etc can all fight it out amongst themselves and the oil rich sultans and sheiks , politicians and uber powerful can join them.. i will not be able to stop it.. Dave if you can make a difference go make one.. i know my limits and i can do fuck all dude..
Indiviuals in a country will usually achieve nothing, granted. But as one voice things can change........but change what is the question that is hard to answer. We shouldn't feel guilt, but some do. What others wish to do to each other is their affair, but is it right to sit and watch and do nothing. Especially to the innocents caught up in it. That is the hard thing to swallow in this whole episode. It is not about Libya in my mind, it is about the world as a whole.
Quote by wild rose and the stag
i can do the politically correct bullshit but too old and i think wise now..
You ain't that old
Dave_Notts
I voted yes on this. It is with a heavy heart but something had to be done. The uprising in Libya followed on quickly from those more peaceful ones in Tunisia and Egypt and the trend has been set across the middle east region that the people have had enough of not having free speech despite the benefits that the Oil wealth in the region undoubtedly has brought to them. The people have access to TV and the internet and through the media of cable TV they are seeing what democracy means - the right to voice an opinion without fear of reprisal. They have seen demonstrations against the War in Iraq and various other protests in Western Capitals over the years and must have noticed that those protesting in the West are not shot, and usually not arrested apart from when the line of public order is crossed.
In a Country that has no real democracy such a reaction from the powers that be would be impossible. The difference between Tunisia, Egypt and Syria with Libya is that those protesting were not faced with armed force. It is apparent that the protests in Libya were across the whole Country and that initially Col Gaddafi was perhaps taken by surprise by them. As he saw his major cities fall from his control he turned his forces on his people. This action alone has sealed his ultimate fate as a properly enforced arms embargo will mean that every bit of his military arsenal he uses will not be replaced and eventually he will have no choice but to step aside (unless one of his son's pushes him first - which would be as unpaletable as him staying in power.
This whole sequence of events in the Middle East have caught everybody on the hop. No one could have predicted the historic events in Egypt and I feel that to date the situation has been allowed to develop where the Will of the people prevails. Signals were sent to Mubarak and others that their position was untenable and the best outcome was acheived. Libya though is different. No one from outside of Libya can make Gaddafi go and it became obvious that he was not going to allow protests against him from within. As time went on it was obvious that this would have one result a brutally supressed population with many civilian casualties - including it has to be said those who have attempted to fight his forces with little hope of success. The Airstrikes and arms embargo simply even out the playing field which will eventually allow the Will of the people to prevail.
My fear is that this will end in stalemate as Gaddafi still commands genuine support from his own tribe. If that were to happen there is a danger that someone might suggest putting in UN peacekeepers. As we know from Serbia and Kosova an unarmed force of UN Peacekeepers are not of much use. The end game is unclear but whatever happens it has to be better than what would have happened if UN resolution 1973 had not been passed.
In a Country that has no real democracy such a reaction from the powers that be would be impossible. The difference between Tunisia, Egypt and Syria with Libya is that those protesting were not faced with armed force. It is apparent that the protests in Libya were across the whole Country and that initially Col Gaddafi was perhaps taken by surprise by them. As he saw his major cities fall from his control he turned his forces on his people. This action alone has sealed his ultimate fate as a properly enforced arms embargo will mean that every bit of his military arsenal he uses will not be replaced and eventually he will have no choice but to step aside (unless one of his son's pushes him first - which would be as unpaletable as him staying in power.
This whole sequence of events in the Middle East have caught everybody on the hop. No one could have predicted the historic events in Egypt and I feel that to date the situation has been allowed to develop where the Will of the people prevails. Signals were sent to Mubarak and others that their position was untenable and the best outcome was acheived. Libya though is different. No one from outside of Libya can make Gaddafi go and it became obvious that he was not going to allow protests against him from within. As time went on it was obvious that this would have one result a brutally supressed population with many civilian casualties - including it has to be said those who have attempted to fight his forces with little hope of success. The Airstrikes and arms embargo simply even out the playing field which will eventually allow the Will of the people to prevail.
My fear is that this will end in stalemate as Gaddafi still commands genuine support from his own tribe. If that were to happen there is a danger that someone might suggest putting in UN peacekeepers. As we know from Serbia and Kosova an unarmed force of UN Peacekeepers are not of much use. The end game is unclear but whatever happens it has to be better than what would have happened if UN resolution 1973 had not been passed.
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
Dave why do you think they should just die?
They will die because nothing has happened to stop their death. Whether by this country or another entity e.g. UN or other
Quote by wild rose and the stag
i never said that.. im fully aware i have not one jot of control as to what happens to them, dont put words in my mouth. whether they come into contact with me or not is irrelevant to my feelings on the matter..
however within my means i can do something for the unfortunate ones that i do come into contact with.. ''we as a nation''.. fuck that .. not my nation, ive said several times its my world and so are the people in it. i can sit here and spout off about what this country should do till the cows come home.. wont make any difference .. my life isnt that important.. it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.. my muslim and jewish and christian brothers etc etc can all fight it out amongst themselves and the oil rich sultans and sheiks , politicians and uber powerful can join them.. i will not be able to stop it.. Dave if you can make a difference go make one.. i know my limits and i can do fuck all dude..
Indiviuals in a country will usually achieve nothing, granted. But as one voice things can change........but change what is the question that is hard to answer. We shouldn't feel guilt, but some do. What others wish to do to each other is their affair, but is it right to sit and watch and do nothing. Especially to the innocents caught up in it. That is the hard thing to swallow in this whole episode. It is not about Libya in my mind, it is about the world as a whole.
Quote by wild rose and the stag
i can do the politically correct bullshit but too old and i think wise now..
You ain't that old
Dave_Notts
will is one thing should is another..
one voice?.. im afraid i cant shout as loud as sky to drum up support ..
I voted no.
This is not about the Libyan people, it's about oil.
I just wish the Governments of the west would spend the money they are presently sinking into this conflict (and the ones before it) into development of oil alternatives. That way, the middle east can go fuck themselves for all it would then matter and the west would have no need to continue currying favour by supplying armaments.
This is not about the Libyan people, it's about oil.
I just wish the Governments of the west would spend the money they are presently sinking into this conflict (and the ones before it) into development of oil alternatives. That way, the middle east can go fuck themselves for all it would then matter and the west would have no need to continue currying favour by supplying armaments.
Sex God
my only thoughts at this time is as a country we are ill placed to afford another war
with trident missiles being fired at half a million quid a time I'm wondering how the fuck we going to pay for it ........as if i don't already know that answer
on another note I'm agreed with foxy fruit n veg purchased at farm shops locally and English meat from local butchers
with trident missiles being fired at half a million quid a time I'm wondering how the fuck we going to pay for it ........as if i don't already know that answer
on another note I'm agreed with foxy fruit n veg purchased at farm shops locally and English meat from local butchers
Sex God
Using the logic applied by one D Cameron just as Libya used it's own armed forces to supress civil unrest in that country, we 'invaded' his air space to defend them.
I'm now searching the news and UN websites looking for his plans to 'invade' Bahrain and defend the civilians there from attack by both that country's own armed forces and those that they've 'imported' for a neighbour.
Not much luck so far :sad:
Am I missing something ?
I'm now searching the news and UN websites looking for his plans to 'invade' Bahrain and defend the civilians there from attack by both that country's own armed forces and those that they've 'imported' for a neighbour.
Not much luck so far :sad:
Am I missing something ?
Orgasminator
Unless the Arab League who asked for a "No Fly Zone" take a more hands on approach to the Lybian conflict we should halt all military action....
Let the Islamic nations chastise one of there own instead of letting the West once again be the evil agressors....
Let the Islamic nations chastise one of there own instead of letting the West once again be the evil agressors....
how hypocritical of the west to now try and get rid of him when for years the likes of blare were seen to be his freind.
we should mind our own business as if we do not have enogh problems alredy here in this country.
one minute we have no money and cuts everywere and now seam to be able to find the money for something that will run into billions of pounds.
us and the usa reely need to stop thinking they own the world and how it operates.
as for nato what a joke. the usa decided to ignore there advice when they said we could not invade iraq and went ahead anyway now it seams we are now taking there advice on this matter.
a complete joke and i say leave gadaffi alone oh sorry forgot it is about oil now.
we should mind our own business as if we do not have enogh problems alredy here in this country.
one minute we have no money and cuts everywere and now seam to be able to find the money for something that will run into billions of pounds.
us and the usa reely need to stop thinking they own the world and how it operates.
as for nato what a joke. the usa decided to ignore there advice when they said we could not invade iraq and went ahead anyway now it seams we are now taking there advice on this matter.
a complete joke and i say leave gadaffi alone oh sorry forgot it is about oil now.
Sex God
have a look at the pie map it should give a good idea as to the invasion hit list for the UK and the US over the next decade or so
Sex God
does kinda make you wonder why they need this oil when the US has this
other sources say there is enough oil to here to last the US 2041 years at current consumption
other sources say there is enough oil to here to last the US 2041 years at current consumption
