I always knew being the sceptic in me that either IVF or being a surrogate Mother, would take the miracle of birth a step too far.
This is not a dig at gays, far from it but....has what this woman done demeans the miracle of birth?
To have a child in these circumstances cannot be right.....can it?
A bit like the old woman who had twins by IVF recently and she sadly died from a combination of the IVF drugs and possibly her age. Have we pushed the boundaries in respect of creating life?
I thought that creating life was done by a man and a woman with their love and wanting to be parents.
I do not agree with this at all, and think the child will suffer emotionaly when it gets old enough to realise who it's Mother is.
No wonder there are so many sceptics out there with respect to stem research, and IVF. When Mother nature says a woman can no longer have kids because of her age,it is distasteful that Doctors can give life to a woman in her 60's.
Do others think this practise is now acceptable, and will the child suffer from it's own emotions later on in life? Should the law change to stop this kind of thing from happening, or is it a good thing this woman has done, by giving her child away?
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Was this woman right?
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Sex God
surly the more important issue here is that the child is loved and cared for by loving parents no matter if they are gay or str8 or been the subject of a surrogasy (sp) if it had come to it i would like to think that i could do something so special and precious for a member of my family if it was using donated eggs and sperm test tube style, i dont see the use of my body as a surrogate in this situation as immoral at all as there is no bialogical bond to the child. wher ea problem could be is that if they used the brothers sperm and the sisters eggs then i would have an issue with the situation
I dont think this is any more wrong than any other surrogate (not that I think surrogate is wrong). They are all clearly a very close family and I think the sister has done something really selfless.
The young child will hopefully now grow up with 2 loving parents and a supportive extended family, which is ideally how every child should be brought up.
The fact that the sister did the surrogacy and not another woman makes it more sepcial, she used her eggs and so the child is biologically related to both parents.
The young child will hopefully now grow up with 2 loving parents and a supportive extended family, which is ideally how every child should be brought up.
The fact that the sister did the surrogacy and not another woman makes it more sepcial, she used her eggs and so the child is biologically related to both parents.
Sexlightened
If the law and its impending changes are any clue, then yes, this practice is becoming more acceptable. I think the child is more likely to suffer due to societal prejudice because his family challenges the accepted norms. I doubt the family is looking forward to the potential hate directed toward them as the result of this media coverage.
Personally, I would prefer this kind of arrangement to a sperm donor or surrogate I don't know. This is as close as the brother can get to having a biological connection with his not-so-biological son, and the sister knew it. It's not the same kind of love, true, but I don't see why that should make a difference.
Personally, I would prefer this kind of arrangement to a sperm donor or surrogate I don't know. This is as close as the brother can get to having a biological connection with his not-so-biological son, and the sister knew it. It's not the same kind of love, true, but I don't see why that should make a difference.
Sex God
Surely the most worrying thing is that this poor child is to be reared by the police...poor little mite
Sex God
In the tragic event that the sister had a child and she then died, no-one would bat an eyelid at her brother becoming the child's carer and parent. It would be seen as a perfectly sensible arrangemnt.
A man caring for a baby is fine - they are perfeectly capable especially with an extended family as support.
So what's the difference here?
Is the objection here that this man and his partner are gay?
Surely - please God! - we are out of the dark ages where a gay man was autmatically assumed to be a . In fact the two were seen as the same thing IN THE PAST.
We know this is not true - any more than a man being straight means he must be a child-molester.
A man caring for a baby is fine - they are perfeectly capable especially with an extended family as support.
So what's the difference here?
Is the objection here that this man and his partner are gay?
Surely - please God! - we are out of the dark ages where a gay man was autmatically assumed to be a . In fact the two were seen as the same thing IN THE PAST.
We know this is not true - any more than a man being straight means he must be a child-molester.
Sex God
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Quote by Dirtygirly
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
Sexlightened
Leaving aside issues of gay,lesbian, straight etc - given the overpopulated state of our fragile planet (not to mention the state of the NHS), one wonders whether fertility treatment, IVF etc is such a good idea after all.
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
How many children are brough up in an environment that's the norm? Of course, the "norm" is open to all sorts of interpretation. I'd consider the norm to be similar to my upbringing with two parents who loved each other and taught their kids the difference between right and wrong.
There are millions of kids out there brought up by single parents, by parents who are at war, etc. There are millions of children out there with no parents at all. There are millions more in care being abused and living a life that's completely unsuitable for a child. I'd rather their best interests were taken care of ahead of a family who are, by all accounts taking care of their own as reported in your link.
I'd rather children were brought up by people who loved them regardless of their gender, sexuality or circumstances. A loved child has their best interests taken care of in my opinion. And I'd really rather that the small minded sorts who take what "they" think the childs best interests are to be the sexuality of their parents opened their minds a little.
Quote by kentswingers777
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
What is normal though ? normal to me as a child was mom, dad and a close relationship with my extended family but that isnt always the case these days. Parents split or were never togther, family move / stop taking etc
Apart from sexuality, how the child is conceived isn't going to affect how they grow up any more than test tube babies (as they were called) etc. From what I understand in this case there is a close knit family and two commited parents .... not all children from straight parents have this.
I am don't claim to be qualified to answer this but I work with children (well teenagers) and I see all sorts of variations on the tradional family, each work differently, some better than others, what was normal to me is almost abnormal now ... What I see as being important is loving parent/s and an extended family for support and guidance.
On a personal level a friend of mine became pregnant during a fling (she was bi at the time). She is now in a loving relationship with a woman, they are now married / had a civil ceremony and the little girl they raise togther is one of most well adjusted and loved children you could meet. Yes mom and dad aren't togther and she doesnt she her dad (his choice) but she has 2 loving parents, 2 sets of grandparents and aunts and uncles who she is loved by.
Quote by Dirtygirly
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
How many children are brough up in an environment that's the norm? Of course, the "norm" is open to all sorts of interpretation. I'd consider the norm to be similar to my upbringing with two parents who loved each other and taught their kids the difference between right and wrong.
There are millions of kids out there brought up by single parents, by parents who are at war, etc. There are millions of children out there with no parents at all. There are millions more in care being abused and living a life that's completely unsuitable for a child. I'd rather their best interests were taken care of ahead of a family who are, by all accounts taking care of their own as reported in your link.
I'd rather children were brought up by people who loved them regardless of their gender, sexuality or circumstances. A loved child has their best interests taken care of in my opinion. And I'd really rather that the small minded sorts who take what "they" think the childs best interests are to be the sexuality of their parents opened their minds a little.
I do not think it is " small minded " to express concern about a child that will be brought up by two gay men.
Nobody is questioning their ability to bring the child up but...what will other kids make of it?
Expressing concern about a child brought up in circumstances that a lot of people would def not consider the norm, is not being " small minded " at all.
I have no doubts that they will love the child but it seems long gone are the days when kids were conceived between a man and a woman in a loving relationship.
I have mixed feelings myself over this and also over the IVF situation. Both can be used to bring kids into the world, and whilst I agree that for couples who cannot conceive naturally it is a wonderful thing, to have kids for other people somehow does not fit too well with me. My opinion of course and maybe I was lucky to be born to a married couple, who stayed married for 50 years, in what most would say was a normal situation?
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I do not think it is " small minded " to express concern about a child that will be brought up by two gay men.
Nobody is questioning their ability to bring the child up but...what will other kids make of it?
Expressing concern about a child brought up in circumstances that a lot of people would def not consider the norm, is not being " small minded " at all.
I have no doubts that they will love the child but it seems long gone are the days when kids were conceived between a man and a woman in a loving relationship.
Kent, in my experience working with kids, I have found them to be remarkably accepting of things... as long as a big deal isn't made out of it. We are all more similar than we are different anyway, despite what the media and some other institutions and think tanks would like us to believe.
If a child has a loving family, then believe me they have a fabulous headstart in life. I don't think it matters a fig what gender or sexuality that family is. There are soooooo many children out there who live in terrible situations; why question parents like this who are doing their best for their child?
A close relative of mine has just had a baby. She is a single woman and she chose to use a sperm donor. People may question her choice - and they have - but at the end of the day she loves her child dearly and that child is going to grow up with a great home and a family who accept them as we accept any baby born into our family.
I know there are issues about over population and I know there are perhaps ethical/moral dilemmas when women have babies past their 'natural' childbearing age. The thing is though, who are we to judge what consitutes a good or normal family?
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
How many children are brough up in an environment that's the norm? Of course, the "norm" is open to all sorts of interpretation. I'd consider the norm to be similar to my upbringing with two parents who loved each other and taught their kids the difference between right and wrong.
There are millions of kids out there brought up by single parents, by parents who are at war, etc. There are millions of children out there with no parents at all. There are millions more in care being abused and living a life that's completely unsuitable for a child. I'd rather their best interests were taken care of ahead of a family who are, by all accounts taking care of their own as reported in your link.
I'd rather children were brought up by people who loved them regardless of their gender, sexuality or circumstances. A loved child has their best interests taken care of in my opinion. And I'd really rather that the small minded sorts who take what "they" think the childs best interests are to be the sexuality of their parents opened their minds a little.
I do not think it is " small minded " to express concern about a child that will be brought up by two gay men.
Nobody is questioning their ability to bring the child up but...what will other kids make of it?
Expressing concern about a child brought up in circumstances that a lot of people would def not consider the norm, is not being " small minded " at all.
I have no doubts that they will love the child but it seems long gone are the days when kids were conceived between a man and a woman in a loving relationship.
I have mixed feelings myself over this and also over the IVF situation. Both can be used to bring kids into the world, and whilst I agree that for couples who cannot conceive naturally it is a wonderful thing, to have kids for other people somehow does not fit too well with me. My opinion of course and maybe I was lucky to be born to a married couple, who stayed married for 50 years, in what most would say was a normal situation?
At 45 years married, I'd guess we had a similiar 'normal' situation. Very lucky we were too.
As for what other kids would think? Depends on the child and the views that are instilled on them from their parents and their peers. My parents did a pretty good job although my mum is quite possibly the most homophobic person I know. However, I have a fairly strong personality and made my own mind up about stuff. I didn't follow peers so throwing jibes at kids who were different just wasn't in my make-up and it really shouldn't be tolerated either by teachers or parents. Shit happens, as does bullying... the best we can do for the future generation is to teach them how to be decent human beings and the live and let live theory.
Why does it concern you so much? What effect does it have on your life what other people do? Unless it's a situation that's arising in your own life, I'm not really sure why you get your knickers in a twist about it? Or can you not live and let live?
Why does it concern you so much? What effect does it have on your life what other people do? Unless it's a situation that's arising in your own life, I'm not really sure why you get your knickers in a twist about it? Or can you not live and let live?
I am not getting me knickers in a twist about anything. :shock:
I merely asked a question and gave my views. Why do people get offended so easily?
Am I not allowed to talk about anything that a lot would not deem the norm?
That saying " live and let live " is fine and I go along with that. I merely asked what will the child have to endure through out it's life?
What prey is so wrong with that?
If people did not " get their knockers in a twist " so often, I am sure there would be hardly anything to talk about.
You should check my previous remark about me having thick skin to post on these forums. When people get slated for merely asking a simple question, it is no wonder I can count on two hands how many new posters have written in the forums over the last three months or longer.
Sorry to sound abrupt dirty, But I like you have a right to ask a question as long as it does not offend anyone, and as far as I can see I have not....or have I? :shock:
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I am not getting me knickers in a twist about anything. :shock:
I merely asked a question and gave my views. Why do people get offended so easily?
Am I not allowed to talk about anything that a lot would not deem the norm?
That saying " live and let live " is fine and I go along with that. I merely asked what will the child have to endure through out it's life?
What prey is so wrong with that?
If people did not " get their knockers in a twist " so often, I am sure there would be hardly anything to talk about.
You should check my previous remark about me having thick skin to post on these forums. When people get slated for merely asking a simple question, it is no wonder I can count on two hands how many new posters have written in the forums over the last three months or longer.
Sorry to sound abrupt dirty, But I like you have a right to ask a question as long as it does not offend anyone, and as far as I can see I have not....or have I? :shock:
Course you do... I'd never suggest otherwise. I just wondered if it was having a direct effect on you and that's why you felt so strongly about it.
Apologies... I see that you don't have your knickers twisted at all!
Your opening post suggests that it cannot be right and that you don't agree with what this family have done. What I'm asking is why not? What can possibly be wrong with a sister giving the gift of life to her brother when he is unable to do it for himself? He has a loving partner, a stable relationship and would appear to be in a position to give a child a good life.
I don't have an opinion either way on IVF, it doesn't affect my life, maybe one day it will, maybe not. I don't think a woman in her 60's should be having children by any means. It's fairly selfish for many reasons.
I stated Dirty that I had " mixed feelings " about it.
That is not the same as saying i do not agree with it.
They are in a major minority in this situation, and we know how minorities are singled out.
I do not think that the child will not suffer from it's peers and friends.
IF these kinds of things are allowed to become the norm, how long will it be before women have kids just to sell them and gain the money?
I feel the child will suffer in it's life from many corners of society, and I was merely asking is that fair?
That is not the same as saying i do not agree with it.
They are in a major minority in this situation, and we know how minorities are singled out.
I do not think that the child will not suffer from it's peers and friends.
IF these kinds of things are allowed to become the norm, how long will it be before women have kids just to sell them and gain the money?
I feel the child will suffer in it's life from many corners of society, and I was merely asking is that fair?
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
I stated Dirty that I had " mixed feelings " about it.
That is not the same as saying i do not agree with it.
They are in a major minority in this situation, and we know how minorities are singled out.
I do not think that the child will not suffer from it's peers and friends.
IF these kinds of things are allowed to become the norm, how long will it be before women have kids just to sell them and gain the money?
I feel the child will suffer in it's life from many corners of society, and I was merely asking is that fair?
Quote by kentswingers777
I do not agree with this at all, and think the child will suffer emotionaly when it gets old enough to realise who it's Mother is.
I see... sorry... I must have read that the wrong way then. :giggle:
Knock yourself out... I can't keep up!
Quote by kentswingers777
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
I dont see what the problem is with 2 "gay men" having a child together. It shouldnt matter if it was a single gay female, single gay male, gay couple or straight couple having the baby through IVF or surrogate person.
A few years back I remember seeing a program about a single straight male who had gone down the path of having 2 children by surrogate mothers as he said he'd never found the right woman to have a child with. Would you say that is wrong?
These days I dont think there is a normal environment to bring a child up in, but most importantly the fact that the child is obviously very wanted, cared for and loved far outways the issues of the parents sexuality.
Quote by lois
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
I dont see what the problem is with 2 "gay men" having a child together. It shouldnt matter if it was a single gay female, single gay male, gay couple or straight couple having the baby through IVF or surrogate person.
A few years back I remember seeing a program about a single straight male who had gone down the path of having 2 children by surrogate mothers as he said he'd never found the right woman to have a child with. Would you say that is wrong?
These days I dont think there is a normal environment to bring a child up in, but most importantly the fact that the child is obviously very wanted, cared for and loved far outways the issues of the parents sexuality.
Maybe that is where society has gone wrong then?
When a child does not know what the " norm " is, what have they got to judge anything by?
Normal to a lot of people would be for a couple to have a child together, and raise it together. A married couple where a child is created by love for each other, and not to be given away like an old times have changed, but not always for the better.
I could never understand how a Mother can conceive a child and carry it for nine months, and then give it away. No matter who they are giving it too.
Kent, you're a swinger arguing the case for the "norm."
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
Sex God
Quote by Witchy
Kent, you're a swinger arguing the case for the "norm."
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
:thumbup: Spot on!!!!!
If 1984 really did come true - very few people and no-one on here would get away without the re-education package. Glass houses is springing to mind.
:D:D Quote by Witchy
Kent, you're a swinger arguing the case for the "norm."
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
I fully agree that what we do is not the " norm " to a lot of people.
The difference is that I really do not give give a seconds toss about what people think of me or more importantly, what I do in private.
I am not interfering with anybodys life, I am not possibly damaging anyones life, or any childrens lives.
Of course my kids would not understand how we either fuck other people, or guys come here to fuck mrs777. But hey if they found out then it is up to us what we do. The same obviously could be said about the child in this case.
Of all the people that I know who have spoken about this case, they think bringing a child up in a gay relationship, will not benefit the child in any way. They have also said that a child thinking this is the " norm " is also not right.
As I have stated for myself I am in two minds because I can see negatives as well as positives.
I do not think though that comparing what I do in the swinging scene, can in any way be compared to this story, that to me is a strange comparrison.
Quote by kentswingers777
Kent, you're a swinger arguing the case for the "norm."
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
I fully agree that what we do is not the " norm " to a lot of people.
The difference is that I really do not give give a seconds toss about what people think of me or more importantly, what I do in private.
I am not interfering with anybodys life, I am not possibly damaging anyones life, or any childrens lives.
Of course my kids would not understand how we either fuck other people, or guys come here to fuck mrs777. But hey if they found out then it is up to us what we do. The same obviously could be said about the child in this case.
Of all the people that I know who have spoken about this case, they think bringing a child up in a gay relationship, will not benefit the child in any way. They have also said that a child thinking this is the " norm " is also not right.
As I have stated for myself I am in two minds because I can see negatives as well as positives.
I do not think though that comparing what I do in the swinging scene, can in any way be compared to this story, that to me is a strange comparrison.
my son is growing up in a gay household..... and always has. All of my friends are gay too.. gay men even. My son thinks of them as his uncles and has an exceptionally close relationship with all of them.
My son has benefited in many ways from growing up in a household where he has many strong male and female role models to talk to and to refer to. He values everything about me and my friends and, out of all of his friends I am the only mum that is called upon to take his friends in when they have arguments with their 'normal' parents.
I have 'normal' parents talk to me about how to relate to their children in a better way as they see me and my son relate in a way they struggle to with their children.
I certainly don't think I am better than any straight parent. I am also open minded enough to know that it takes all sorts to make up this planet. I thank goodness that you are in the minority.
oh, and there are some people that know that my son has had a tough time recently and do you know what those tough times were about ? It was about wanting to help his g/f who had normal parents and feeling powerless to protect her from the their bullying and abuse. I had raised him to believe that he could do anything he set his mind to. I made a mistake. I didn't realise that simply being wonderful was inadequate against small mindedness, bullying, ignorance and bigotry.
and the comparison that witchy made was definitely inaccurate. You can't be compared to anyone else. You are unique.
Quote by kentswingers777
Kent, you're a swinger arguing the case for the "norm."
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
I fully agree that what we do is not the " norm " to a lot of people.
The difference is that I really do not give give a seconds toss about what people think of me or more importantly, what I do in private.
I am not interfering with anybodys life, I am not possibly damaging anyones life, or any childrens lives.
Of course my kids would not understand how we either fuck other people, or guys come here to fuck mrs777. But hey if they found out then it is up to us what we do. The same obviously could be said about the child in this case.
Of all the people that I know who have spoken about this case, they think bringing a child up in a gay relationship, will not benefit the child in any way. They have also said that a child thinking this is the " norm " is also not right.
As I have stated for myself I am in two minds because I can see negatives as well as positives.
I do not think though that comparing what I do in the swinging scene, can in any way be compared to this story, that to me is a strange comparrison.
Can you not expand the logic?
I, and other forumites fought a 4/5 day long running battle on a thread in 'nillaville recently with a bunch of people- one in particular likened swinging to Paedophillia- who considered "us" to be lesser people, lesser parents, and lesser partners.
This is simply another side to the same coin.
Consider this, your kids are still at school- and your nocturnal activities get found out by the local busybody. It gets out. It spreads around the school like wildfire. Your kids are ostracised. Suddenly, the sleepover is off. They're bullied. The party invitation is withdrawn...their lives are hell.
Whats to blame? Your sexual choices, surely? Or the small mindedness of the people and their reactions?
With gay people- they haven't even chosen to be gay. They just are. Are they lesser people for it? Less able to parent?
Mother nature intended than the product of M + F = B. Mother nature also made gays. I'd prefer, as it happens, that Fred & Bob took on a child from within the care system- but I'd also prefer Arthur & Sally to do that too.
You can't say in one breath that you're not homophobic- but deny two gay people the right to procreate with "help" that you'd give to straight people.
I have gay friends who'd make fab dads. I have straight friends who would make lousy parents. I have straight friends who'd make fab parents. If they fell into the "fab" category, I'd donate eggs etc to them regardless of gender. My decision would be based on their ability to parent.
Would you advocate people not breeding because they were likely to have kids with ginger hair? Be too tall? Too short?
All of these things are as likely to result in bullying as having gay parents. Extend the logic.
And Splen, it's not me who's wrong my little nest of vipers- you've clearly lost the plot. Not all your friends are gay.
Quote by splendid_
Kent, you're a swinger arguing the case for the "norm."
Somewhere in Cyberwebspace there's a forum, and people are typing stuff like this:
"...as for those wife swapping sorts, bloody perverts! What about their kids? Can you imagine the damage it does to them not being bought up in a normal environment?"
Before you vote for Norman Normal- think carefully. If he gets into power, he may well outlaw you.
I fully agree that what we do is not the " norm " to a lot of people.
The difference is that I really do not give give a seconds toss about what people think of me or more importantly, what I do in private.
I am not interfering with anybodys life, I am not possibly damaging anyones life, or any childrens lives.
Of course my kids would not understand how we either fuck other people, or guys come here to fuck mrs777. But hey if they found out then it is up to us what we do. The same obviously could be said about the child in this case.
Of all the people that I know who have spoken about this case, they think bringing a child up in a gay relationship, will not benefit the child in any way. They have also said that a child thinking this is the " norm " is also not right.
As I have stated for myself I am in two minds because I can see negatives as well as positives.
I do not think though that comparing what I do in the swinging scene, can in any way be compared to this story, that to me is a strange comparrison.
my son is growing up in a gay household..... and always has. All of my friends are gay too.. gay men even. My son thinks of them as his uncles and has an exceptionally close relationship with all of them.
My son has benefited in many ways from growing up in a household where he has many strong male and female role models to talk to and to refer to. He values everything about me and my friends and, out of all of his friends I am the only mum that is called upon to take his friends in when they have arguments with their 'normal' parents.
I have 'normal' parents talk to me about how to relate to their children in a better way as they see me and my son relate in a way they struggle to with their children.
I certainly don't think I am better than any straight parent. I am also open minded enough to know that it takes all sorts to make up this planet. I thank goodness that you are in the minority.
oh, and there are some people that know that my son has had a tough time recently and do you know what those tough times were about ? It was about wanting to help his g/f who had normal parents and feeling powerless to protect her from the their bullying and abuse. I had raised him to believe that he could do anything he set his mind to. I made a mistake. I didn't realise that simply being wonderful was inadequate against small mindedness, bullying, ignorance and bigotry.
and the comparison that witchy made was definitely inaccurate. You can't be compared to anyone else. You are unique.
Your first point clearly shows why you are so biased towards anything said against gay people. Of which I understand but not everyone is blessed with your knowledge.
As for the second point, how do YOU know I am in the minority? Is that what you would like to think? The only reason people do not speak out now is for the very reasons I get slagged off on here, it is called freedom of speech. Which seems to slowly be getting rarer to do. A lot of people are scared to say anything nowadays for fear of being branded one thing or another, just because it goes against what the minority thinks.
We are a free country just about and people like yourself want people like me to go away, just so you can have your views without others going against them. You have done to me many times in the past what you do not like me doing to you.
And your last point....yes I am unique, as we all are. Each one different only I think your interpretation of that was not what most would think.
I said that I have mixed feelings about this and that I could see negatives and positives, but even that is not good enough for you. You do not want anyone to even dare to express anything different to your views. What am I today in your words then? Will it be the same as last time I wonder?
Unlike a lot of people I am not afraid to air my views for fear of upsetting a small minority,as long as it is not deliberatly offensive, which I do not set out to be.
Quote by kentswingers777
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
I dont see what the problem is with 2 "gay men" having a child together. It shouldnt matter if it was a single gay female, single gay male, gay couple or straight couple having the baby through IVF or surrogate person.
A few years back I remember seeing a program about a single straight male who had gone down the path of having 2 children by surrogate mothers as he said he'd never found the right woman to have a child with. Would you say that is wrong?
These days I dont think there is a normal environment to bring a child up in, but most importantly the fact that the child is obviously very wanted, cared for and loved far outways the issues of the parents sexuality.
Maybe that is where society has gone wrong then?
When a child does not know what the " norm " is, what have they got to judge anything by?
Normal to a lot of people would be for a couple to have a child together, and raise it together. A married couple where a child is created by love for each other, and not to be given away like an old times have changed, but not always for the better.
I could never understand how a Mother can conceive a child and carry it for nine months, and then give it away. No matter who they are giving it too.
So are you saying that anyone who gets pregnant and gives a child away for whatever reason its wrong. So a 14 year old girl and doesnt tell anyone until its too late has the child adopted is that wrong?
Is the couple who spend £30k on IVF treament and still doesnt get pregnant and finds a surrogate mom to have the IVF treament for them using their eggs/sperm, is that wrong?
The way you have put across your comments appears that you donts approve of gay/lesbian relationships why should they now have the option of having children?
Quote by soul-girl
If my brother found that he couldn't have children and I was in a position to help then I'd help him regardless of his sexuality and who his partner was.
Whilst I agree that the artical focused mainly on their sexuality, will the child not grow up in an enviroment that is not the norm?
If that was to be the case, will the child be ridiculed because of it, and will that child be unhappy because of that?
How far are people allowed to take the IVF or the surrogate issues?
I think these issues should be looked at very carefully, and think of the childs best interests, and not the adults making the decisions.
I dont see what the problem is with 2 "gay men" having a child together. It shouldnt matter if it was a single gay female, single gay male, gay couple or straight couple having the baby through IVF or surrogate person.
A few years back I remember seeing a program about a single straight male who had gone down the path of having 2 children by surrogate mothers as he said he'd never found the right woman to have a child with. Would you say that is wrong?
These days I dont think there is a normal environment to bring a child up in, but most importantly the fact that the child is obviously very wanted, cared for and loved far outways the issues of the parents sexuality.
Maybe that is where society has gone wrong then?
When a child does not know what the " norm " is, what have they got to judge anything by?
Normal to a lot of people would be for a couple to have a child together, and raise it together. A married couple where a child is created by love for each other, and not to be given away like an old times have changed, but not always for the better.
I could never understand how a Mother can conceive a child and carry it for nine months, and then give it away. No matter who they are giving it too.
So are you saying that anyone who gets pregnant and gives a child away for whatever reason its wrong. So a 14 year old girl and doesnt tell anyone until its too late has the child adopted is that wrong?
Is the couple who spend £30k on IVF treament and still doesnt get pregnant and finds a surrogate mom to have the IVF treament for them using their eggs/sperm, is that wrong?
The way you have put across your comments appears that you donts approve of gay/lesbian relationships why should they now have the option of having children?
If and I say IF I did not agree with gay or lesbian couples being given a child, is that a crime? Is it a crime to express concern for a child brought up in a gay relationship?
Or should I just keep me gob shut and not be allowed to express an opinion, for that old cookie of being labelled " homophobic " or whatever else someone might want to call it?
As you have put it already, yes of course there are exceptions to the rule, all I was asking was will this child suffer by being brought up in a gay relationship, and my opinion stands....yes it will. That does not make me any " phobic " you want to call it.
The liberals would banish me to a far flung corner of the globe for merely thinking such a thing but....we do live in tolerant Britain, and that still gives me and anyone else a right to express an opinion.....or maybe not?
I have said there are negatives and positives to this, and I think the negatives outweigh the positives. Purely my opinion of course.
